Jewish Heroes or Villians in Marvel Universe?

[furie]

Reading the " Black Panther thread" got me thinking. Are there any Jewish heroes or villians in the Marvel Universe?

[spideyguy0]

The Thing, Kitty Pride, and Sabra come to mind, and I'm pretty sure there are more. I think I have a list somewhere.

[Loki]

Reading the " Black Panther thread" got me thinking. Are there any Jewish heroes or villians in the Marvel Universe?
Off the top of my head, Magneto would mostly fall into the villain category. On the heroic side, Sabra, Shadowcat, Thing, White Tiger (Kasper Cole, not the others of that name).

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Off the top of my head, Magneto would mostly fall into the villain category. On the heroic side, Sabra, Shadowcat, Thing, White Tiger (Kasper Cole, not the others of that name).

Magneto is Gyspy. It's a wide assumption he's Jewish but there has never been any positive proof of such a thing.

[Loki]

Magneto is Gyspy. It's a wide assumption he's Jewish but there has never been any positive proof of such a thing.
No, Magneto is Jewish. He assumed a fake gypsy identity (Eric Lensherr) after the war while searching for his gypsy wife Magda, but he is Jewish.

http://www.alara.net/opeople/xbooks/magjew.html

Specifically the section on X-Men #72

[JolietJake]

Off the top of my head, Magneto would mostly fall into the villain category. On the heroic side, Sabra, Shadowcat, Thing, White Tiger (Kasper Cole, not the others of that name).

I'm not an X-Men scribe so correct me if I'm missing something. But wasn't Magneto identified as a Gypsy rather than Jewish back in X-MEN UNLIMITED #2? I seem to remember at the time being mildly surprised at this revelation because a lot of Mag's backstory developed in Claremont's initial run on UNCANNY X-MEN certainly seemed to suggest he was Jewish.

A few others I thought of:
Sasquatch (Walter Lagkowski) of Alpha Flight
Doc Samson
Moon Knight

EDIT: Ah, looks like someone answered my Magneto question, above. Thanks

[overcomebyfumes]

I've always kinda gotten the impression that Peter Parker was Jewish, although I don't think anyone's actually come out and confirmed or denyed it.

[hmnut73]

Justice from the the New Warriors/ Avengers is Jewish.

[tjarvis]

I've always kinda gotten the impression that Peter Parker was Jewish, although I don't think anyone's actually come out and confirmed or denyed it.

Considering he and MJ frequently celebrate Christmas, and there's never been a mention of Hannakuh, I'm going to have say that's probably not true. Not to mention Parker isn't really a Jewish name.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I can't think of a single Muslim hero apart from the Arabian Knight.

[Pike]

I've always kinda gotten the impression that Peter Parker was Jewish, although I don't think anyone's actually come out and confirmed or denyed it.

Direct relatives were Reilly's and they do celebrate Christmas so I don't think so. I always assumed he was Catholic but I have no basis for that other than a hunch.

[Dermie]

I can't think of a single Muslim hero apart from the Arabian Knight.

I think Josiah X is.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I think Josiah X is.
Is he? That's good.

[darkchylde7]

Magneto is Gyspy. It's a wide assumption he's Jewish but there has never been any positive proof of such a thing.

Actually he's polish

[Expletive Deleted]

I can't think of a single Muslim hero apart from the Arabian Knight.Dust from NEW X-MEN, I think.

[StoneGold]

Not to mention Parker isn't really a Jewish name.
Not that it means anything. But no, the extent of Parker's Jewishness is in his creation and scripting by Stan.

As far as other Marvel characters that haven't been brought up yet, we've skipped the first one, Izzy Cohen of the Howling Commandos, Achilles of the Pantheon, the original Sin-Eater, the Gaffer from SHIELD, despite the new-age hoo-haw, I'm guessing that Wiccan has at least Jewish roots, Dominic Fortune, Volcanna, the Two-Gun Kid, Iceman is non-practicing half-Jewish, Songbird, Cap's ex Bernie Rosenthal... and that's pretty much it off the top of my head. And a couple of those probably aren't very observant, if not practising altogether.


EDIT: Oh, and if you count companies Marvel bought, Prime.

[Haunt]

has anyone mentioned the Golem yet? or Frankenstein's monster (speculating)?

[StoneGold]

has anyone mentioned the Golem yet? or Frankenstein's monster (speculating)?
The thread is only two pages long, how hard is it to check? But yeah, Marvel's Golem had a rabbi changing Hulk-style, didn't he? Was sort of a Hulk analogue in the Invaders, right?

Although I haven't heard anything about Frankenstein. If it's just because of the stein, that's more just German than Jewish. I'm more likely to buy into the Zorro theories than Frankenstein. Although I don't believe Zorro has ever been published at Marvel.

[spideyguy0]

I've always kinda gotten the impression that Peter Parker was Jewish, although I don't think anyone's actually come out and confirmed or denyed it.

Well, the 616 Parker isnt, but has the Ultimate version ever done anything to suggest he isnt? Bendis has worked a fair amount of Yiddish into Ultimate Parker's vocabulary, and how many non-Jewish 15 year olds know Yiddish?

[Pike]

Well Bendis appears to be fairly Jewish at least culturally.

I think Stan and Jack took the right approach when they left religion out of the major characters (though Reed Richards has w.a.s.p. written all over him).

Also, Steve Ditko was fairly hard-core Catholic so I doubt he would let Spidey be overtly Jewish.

[Crimson]

Well, the 616 Parker isnt, but has the Ultimate version ever done anything to suggest he isnt? Bendis has worked a fair amount of Yiddish into Ultimate Parker's vocabulary, and how many non-Jewish 15 year olds know Yiddish?

What falls under Yiddish (Examples in Ultimate Spider-Man?)? I've never noticed anything that seemed really out of place or something I don't understand

Excuse my ignorance but Jewish isn’t a big religion where I live so I couldn't really say what is Yiddish and what isn't… and using pop culture isn’t the best idea.

[Charles RB]

No, Magneto is Jewish.

Not according to current Marvel talk, which has him as a Gypsy.

[StoneGold]

Well Bendis appears to be fairly Jewish at least culturally.

I think Stan and Jack took the right approach when they left religion out of the major characters (though Reed Richards has w.a.s.p. written all over him).

Also, Steve Ditko was fairly hard-core Catholic so I doubt he would let Spidey be overtly Jewish.
Ignoring that with Stan doing the words, not much of a choice. Not to mention, a good chunk of what we consider "the essential Spidey" was drawn by people other than Ditko. Romita and the like.

That said, Spidey isn't Jewish. He just seem that way sometimes because Stan was doing the words. And what with Reed being Mr. Science and all, travelling to heaven is only changing dimensions, he's more of a WAS.

[StoneGold]

Not according to current Marvel talk, which has him as a Gypsy.
Current Marvel talk? Current Marvel talk where? Especially not since the movie, where Mags was definitely Jewish.

[Charles RB]

Current Marvel talk? Current Marvel talk where?

Magneto is specifically refered to being Roma by Doom in one of the House Of M tie-ins. It's written by Hudlin, so there's a fair chance it's bollocks, but it seems unlikely that nobody in editorial would've let it pass during a big crossover based around Magneto if they didn't think that was the current Marvel line.

So now I'm confused as to whether Marvel is retconning him as a Gypsy for some reason or just nobody's paying attention. Brains hurt.

[CireNagoh]

I always thought Mag's was gypsy. northern romany or something. neat tho. It'd be cool if he was latverian. lol

But i do wish they'd do something MORE with Sabra.

[darkchylde7]

Current Marvel talk? Current Marvel talk where? Especially not since the movie, where Mags was definitely Jewish.

No, he's Polish, which is why he was in the concentration camp.

[Pike]

I always thought that both Magneto and Charles Xavier were Jewish. I thought it added some real character depth to Magneto as a character. If I saw my parents slaughtered by the Nazi's then I might be looking to wipe-out human kind as well.

Ditko was very involved with Spiderman's creation though so I'd say he had some influence as to the character development.

I've asked this before but who married Peter and MJ?

[AceOfSpades]

I can't think of a single Muslim hero apart from the Arabian Knight.

Dust from X-men... She is clearly muslim from the burka ( I can't spell)

[Charles RB]

No, he's Polish, which is why he was in the concentration camp.

Being Polish wouldn't stop him being Jewish or Gypsy as well.

[spideyguy0]

What falls under Yiddish (Examples in Ultimate Spider-Man?)? I've never noticed anything that seemed really out of place or something I don't understand


I'm not sure exactly where but there were several examples of Yiddish between USM #s 40-60. At one point MJ even asks Peter what he just said and he replies that its Yiddish. I also remember Pete using the word chutzpah.

[Loki]

I'm not sure exactly where but there were several examples of Yiddish between USM #s 40-60. At one point MJ even asks Peter what he just said and he replies that its Yiddish. I also remember Pete using the word chutzpah.
I use Yiddish words, and I'm not Jewish. I blame Mel Brooks movies.

[Sam]

I always thought that both Magneto and Charles Xavier were Jewish. I thought it added some real character depth to Magneto as a character. If I saw my parents slaughtered by the Nazi's then I might be looking to wipe-out human kind as well.

The Nazis put gypsies in the camps, too. In the comics, Magneto was a gypsy whose family died in the camps. There's not a heck of a lot of wiggle room on that, because Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have traditionally worn their gypsy heritage on their sleeve, and since they're Magneto's kids, well...

In the movies, for simplicity's sake -- most people don't think 'gypsy' when they think Holocaust -- they made him Jewish.

[Loki]

The Nazis put gypsies in the camps, too. In the comics, Magneto was a gypsy whose family died in the camps. There's not a heck of a lot of wiggle room on that, because Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have traditionally worn their gypsy heritage on their sleeve, and since they're Magneto's kids, well...

In the movies, for simplicity's sake -- most people don't think 'gypsy' when they think Holocaust -- they made him Jewish.

Wanda and Pietro were raised by the Maximoffs, who were gypsies. Magneto, however, is Jewish. The gypsy background revealed in one story (which was at odds with all the previous evidence) has been clearly shown to be a fake identity in X-Men #72.

[StoneGold]

The Nazis put gypsies in the camps, too. In the comics, Magneto was a gypsy whose family died in the camps. There's not a heck of a lot of wiggle room on that, because Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have traditionally worn their gypsy heritage on their sleeve, and since they're Magneto's kids, well...

Except you're forgetting a couple of things. One, the kids didn't even know Magneto was their father until the late 80s. Hell, at one point, they thought the Whizzer and Ms. America were their parents. And they were still as you put it, wearing their gypsy heritage on their sleeves. That's just because Django and Marya Maximoff were gypsies.

That, and Magda was definitely a gypsy. Mags, not so clear. There was a period in th 90s where they were definitely leaning more towards Jewish, hence the whole Eric Lehnsherr ID. And to be honest, between that, his ties to Israel, and some of the other things that were built up in the late 80s-90s, there's probably enough evidence left to say he's definitely Jewish.

And for whatever it's worth, which is next to nothing, Wiki says he's Jewish.

[StoneGold]

I always thought that both Magneto and Charles Xavier were Jewish.
Chuck ain't Jewish. But his crazy homicidal, occasionally dead son is.

[Gnarl]

Magneto is Gyspy. It's a wide assumption he's Jewish but there has never been any positive proof of such a thing.

Magneto is definitely jewish. He married a gypsy, and spent time with gypsies searching for her after she left him. His children was raised gypsy. The goverment of Isarel also spent considerable effort trying to portray him as a gypsy. Magneto himself has always been lapsed jewish, though.

[Charles RB]

Magneto himself has always been lapsed jewish, though.

Very, very lasped, what with the attempted mass murders and stuff.

[Gnarl]

"As a child, I prayed, as a child, I turned my back on god forever"

Yes, very lapsed.

[Sandy Hausler]

Not that it means anything. But no, the extent of Parker's Jewishness is in his creation and scripting by Stan.

As far as other Marvel characters that haven't been brought up yet, we've skipped the first one, Izzy Cohen of the Howling Commandos, Achilles of the Pantheon, the original Sin-Eater, the Gaffer from SHIELD, despite the new-age hoo-haw, I'm guessing that Wiccan has at least Jewish roots, Dominic Fortune, Volcanna, the Two-Gun Kid, Iceman is non-practicing half-Jewish, Songbird, Cap's ex Bernie Rosenthal... and that's pretty much it off the top of my head. And a couple of those probably aren't very observant, if not practising altogether.


EDIT: Oh, and if you count companies Marvel bought, Prime.

That's a pretty impressive list. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the rabbi's son, Moon Knight.

Just out of curiosity, what's the basis for Achilles, Volcanna, and Sin-Eater? (I suspect it's real names, but I don't know who they are). I'd read somewhere that Two Gun Kid is Jewish, as you say, but where was it revealed? I mean Mat Hawk? And Iceman? Songbird?

Enquiring minds want to know. And so does mine.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

Well, the 616 Parker isnt, but has the Ultimate version ever done anything to suggest he isnt? Bendis has worked a fair amount of Yiddish into Ultimate Parker's vocabulary, and how many non-Jewish 15 year olds know Yiddish?

Well, he does live in NYC.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

Well Bendis appears to be fairly Jewish at least culturally.

I think Stan and Jack took the right approach when they left religion out of the major characters (though Reed Richards has w.a.s.p. written all over him).

Also, Steve Ditko was fairly hard-core Catholic so I doubt he would let Spidey be overtly Jewish.

Not that I agree that Spidey is Jewish, but why would a Catholic artist not "let" a character be Jewish? I don't get that.

Sandy Hausler

[Dizzy D]

That's a pretty impressive list. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the rabbi's son, Moon Knight.

Just out of curiosity, what's the basis for Achilles, Volcanna, and Sin-Eater? (I suspect it's real names, but I don't know who they are). I'd read somewhere that Two Gun Kid is Jewish, as you say, but where was it revealed? I mean Mat Hawk? And Iceman? Songbird?

Enquiring minds want to know. And so does mine.<g>

Sandy Hausler

I think names for most of them:
- Volcana: Marsha Rosenberg
- Songbird: Melissa Gold and she has also used the alias Mimi Schwartz.
- Two-Gun Kid: Matthew Liebowicz (Matt Hawk was an alias)

As for the others I know:
Achilles from the Pantheon: his mother was jewish as was seen in his backstory issue in the Hulk

[Sandy Hausler]

I think names for most of them:
- Volcana: Marsha Rosenberg
- Songbird: Melissa Gold and she has also used the alias Mimi Schwartz.
- Two-Gun Kid: Matthew Liebowicz (Matt Hawk was an alias)

As for the others I know:
Achilles from the Pantheon: his mother was jewish as was seen in his backstory issue in the Hulk

Thanks for the info. But where was it revealed that Mat Hawk's real name was Liebowicz. Must have been recent; comic book heroes did not have anything but All-American names until the 70s.

Sandy Hausler

[Dizzy D]

Thanks for the info. But where was it revealed that Mat Hawk's real name was Liebowicz. Must have been recent; comic book heroes did not have anything but All-American names until the 70s.

Sandy Hausler

Well, originally his name was Clay Harder. Liebowicz was his name since 1960 as far as I know (stating that the Golden Age Clay Harder Two-Gun Kid was only a pulp fiction character within the Marvel Universe). Maybe the Classics board knows more.
EDIT: A bit of searching around on the net does make it seem that the Liebowicz was a later add-on, but I can't find when it happened.

[Pike]

Not that I agree that Spidey is Jewish, but why would a Catholic artist not "let" a character be Jewish? I don't get that.

Sandy Hausler

Ditko was a devout Catholic and I believe he wanted his characters to reflect both is religious and political philosophies.

[Sentry]

Ditko was a devout Catholic and I believe he wanted his characters to reflect both is religious and political philosophies.

thats a fair point, the first rule of writing is ''write about what you know''.

if i were to create a charater i suppose he would be incredibly good looking, with a sharp wit, while being rather charming.

[StoneGold]

That's a pretty impressive list. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the rabbi's son, Moon Knight.

Just out of curiosity, what's the basis for Achilles, Volcanna, and Sin-Eater? (I suspect it's real names, but I don't know who they are). I'd read somewhere that Two Gun Kid is Jewish, as you say, but where was it revealed? I mean Mat Hawk? And Iceman? Songbird?

Enquiring minds want to know. And so does mine.<g>

Sandy Hausler
Just to add on the stuff that someone else didn't touch on, Sin-Eater, I don't remember if it was specifically spelled out in the comic, been too long since I read it, but I do remember PAD definitly said he was in the foreward for the Death of Jean DeWolff trade. And Achilles' whole gimmick was that he was Jewish, his family was killed in the Holocaust, which is why he had the huge chip on his shoulder. Iceman... honestly, I don't know, I got him off a list. But it's specificness that he's non-practicing half-Jewish makes me thing it's true.


And someone else mentioned Moon Knight on the first page.

[Dermie]

- Songbird: Melissa Gold and she has also used the alias Mimi Schwartz.


I think she was also seen wearing a Jewish symbol in one issue.

[Sandy Hausler]

Ditko was a devout Catholic and I believe he wanted his characters to reflect both is religious and political philosophies.

Then he must have loved Dr. Strange. I mean, come on, I'm sure Ditko did not make any cultural (or political) demands on the characters he drew.

Sandy Hausler

[StoneGold]

Then he must have loved Dr. Strange. I mean, come on, I'm sure Ditko did not make any cultural (or political) demands on the characters he drew.

Sandy Hausler
You're wrong on the political. That's why he quit Spidey. Dude was all wacky with the Ayn Rand crap. First I've ever heard about religious though. Can't think of any serious religious overtones in his Charleton work, which were like Objectivism treatises in spandex.

[Pike]

Then he must have loved Dr. Strange. I mean, come on, I'm sure Ditko did not make any cultural (or political) demands on the characters he drew.

Sandy Hausler

What aboutt the Question?

They certainly didn't make Spiderman overtly Jewish. If anything, the names Parker & Reilly suggest Christian as opposed to Jewish.

For example, Peter tends to be used more by Chriitians than Jews (though feel free to correct me if I am wrong Sandy!).

http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=peter

The last name Parker appears to be English.

http://genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/p/bl_name-PARKER.htm

It doesn't appear to be a particularly Jewish name and it lends itself more a Protestant religion or culture than anything else.

Then again, Stan loved aliteration (Bruce Banner etc.) so your mileage may vary.

[Sandy Hausler]

You're wrong on the political. That's why he quit Spidey. Dude was all wacky with the Ayn Rand crap. First I've ever heard about religious though. Can't think of any serious religious overtones in his Charleton work, which were like Objectivism treatises in spandex.

I'd heard that he left Spidey because of Stan's decision to have him graduate from high school. I'm aware of Ditko's Ayn Rand fixation and how that plays into some of his solo work, but I've never heard that it stopped him from working on Spidey. Ayn Rand would probably have loved Spidey. (She loved James Bond, by the way.) He lives by his deeply felt principles. That's her creed.

Sandy Hausler

[StoneGold]

What aboutt the Question?

They certainly didn't make Spiderman overtly Jewish. If anything, the names Parker & Reilly suggest Christian as opposed to Jewish.

For example, Peter tends to be used more by Chriitians than Jews (though feel free to correct me if I am wrong Sandy!).

http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=peter

The last name Parker appears to be English.

http://genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/p/bl_name-PARKER.htm

It doesn't appear to be a particularly Jewish name and it lends itself more a Protestant religion or culture than anything else.

Then again, Stan loved aliteration (Bruce Banner etc.) so your mileage may vary.
That's the other fun thing about the Jews, there tends to be a lot of name changing, so "Jewish names" don't always apply. Realizing they aren't their given names, but still, Lee? Kirby? Not exactly dripping with Semeticism. My mother's maiden name was Cole. Changed by her father from Cohen.

Which again, I'm not saying Pete is actually Jewish. Just sort of Jewish in character, by virtue of having been written by Jews for a good portion of his existance, especially in the early, formative years.

[Sandy Hausler]

What aboutt the Question?

They certainly didn't make Spiderman overtly Jewish. If anything, the names Parker & Reilly suggest Christian as opposed to Jewish.

For example, Peter tends to be used more by Chriitians than Jews (though feel free to correct me if I am wrong Sandy!).

http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=peter

The last name Parker appears to be English.

http://genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/p/bl_name-PARKER.htm

It doesn't appear to be a particularly Jewish name and it lends itself more a Protestant religion or culture than anything else.

Then again, Stan loved aliteration (Bruce Banner etc.) so your mileage may vary.

I know Jews with the name Peter, but I would agree that it is not particularly Jewish. Nowadays, most Jews have names that are not particularly Jewish.

Sandy Hausler

[Pike]

I know Jews with the name Peter, but I would agree that it is not particularly Jewish. Nowadays, most Jews have names that are not particularly Jewish.

Sandy Hausler

That's my understanding as well. However, a last name of Parker coupled with the name Peter suggests that he isn't Jewish. Parker doesn't appear to be an abbreviate Jewish name either as it a fairly old English name in its own right.

Does anyone know who married Pete and MJ?

[StoneGold]

I'd heard that he left Spidey because of Stan's decision to have him graduate from high school. I'm aware of Ditko's Ayn Rand fixation and how that plays into some of his solo work, but I've never heard that it stopped him from working on Spidey. Ayn Rand would probably have loved Spidey. (She loved James Bond, by the way.) He lives by his deeply felt principles. That's her creed.

Sandy Hausler
Legend has it Ditko quit Marvel because Stan wanted to make the Green Goblin Norman Osborn, and Ditko wanted to make him some random guy, because how often is the badguy someone you actually know? Ditko's said that isn't true, I've got a feeling, just how widespread the story is, that it was a part of the problems, if not the actual reason why he left.

Just checked, it's in Ditko's Wiki entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ditko#Marvel_Comics_and_Spider-Man

[StoneGold]

That's my understanding as well. However, a last name of Parker coupled with the name Peter suggests that he isn't Jewish. Parker doesn't appear to be an abbreviate Jewish name either as it a fairly old English name in its own right.

Again, my mother's last name was Cole, a fairly old English name in it's own right. Doesn't mean it wasn't changed, which it was.

[Pike]

Again, my mother's last name was Cole, a fairly old English name in it's own right. Doesn't mean it wasn't changed, which it was.

Cohen to Cole makes some sense (if my understanding of your post is correct) whereas I'm not sure what Jewish name would be changed to Parker.

Moreover, with a first name of Peter and at least some family with a distinctly Irish name of Reilly all the circumstantial evidence seems to suggest that he is not Jewish.

[StoneGold]

Cohen to Cole makes some sense (if my understanding of your post is correct) whereas I'm not sure what Jewish name would be changed to Parker.

Moreover, with a first name of Peter and at least some family with a distinctly Irish name of Reilly all the circumstantial evidence seems to suggest that he is not Jewish.
Except he's not related to Reilly at all. Reilly is Aunt May's name. Who Uncle Ben Parker married. By your logic, George W. Bush is Latino because Jeb married a Mexican.

EDIT: For the record, John Kerry's fine Irish grandfather was a Chekloslovakian Jew. So never judge anything just based on names.

[Pike]

To be sure this is all speculation but we have to go by the "more likely than not" standard. That is, if you were to take a bet without knowing the facts, it's much more likely that Kerry's grandfather was not a Jew than he was a Jew.

That is, it's more likely than not that Peter Parker is not a Jewish name (based on the preponderance of the evidence). Further, Stan Lee et al. wanted to make Peter an "everyman" so to speak. He was from Queens, NY (if I am correct) so I'm not sure what that means in terms of the number of Jews in the area.

Again, who married MJ & Pete? Doesn't anyone have the issue?

According to this list, he's a Protestant ?

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html


Some of the claims on this list (and subsequent descriptions) are just ridiculous. Still, they do make a good point about May being a Christian.

[StoneGold]

To be sure this is all speculation but we have to go by the "more likely than not" standard. That is, if you were to take a bet without knowing the facts, it's much more likely that Kerry's grandfather was not a Jew than he was a Jew.

That is, it's more likely than not that Peter Parker is not a Jewish name (based on the preponderance of the evidence). Further, Stan Lee et al. wanted to make Peter an "everyman" so to speak. He was from Queens, NY (if I am correct) so I'm not sure what that means in terms of the number of Jews in the area.

Again, who married MJ & Pete? Doesn't anyone have the issue?

According to this list, he's a Protestant ?

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html


Some of the claims on this list (and subsequent descriptions) are just ridiculous. Still, they do make a good point about May being a Christian.
And what I'm saying is that more likely than not is not a good way to judge these things. Ben Grimm was more likely than not not Jewish, till Kessel wrote that story. Hell, Sasquatch wasn't, till Starlin needed an extra Jew for Infinity Crusade.

Now, I'm not saying Pete is Jewish. In fact, I've been saying from the beginning that he isn't. At the very least not religiously, and until some writer wants to stick in that either Pete's mom was Jewish, or that the Parker family name used to be Parkstein or whatever, not ethnically. If anything, Pete's been shown to be more as one of those spiritual, but not religious kind of guys. Believes in god, talks to him occasionally, but never mentioned in any kind of specific denomination. And any aspects of Judaism in the character are due the fault of being written by guys like Lee, Gerber, Wolfman, JMS, etc. (Just a random assortment. )

And that list really, really sucks. Their evidence that Pete is protestant is that he hasn't specifically been shown to be anything else. And seriously, what religion is Liberal Marxist Communist? Half the crap up there is either conjecture or made up entirely.

[StoneGold]

Huh. That crappy site has been updated. It used to list Bruce Wayne as Catholic, when Episcopalian makes much more sense. Although how the hell is the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender function as a religion????? Jeebus, this guy has his head up his ass.

[Pike]

I think the list sucks as well (as I noted) though I think the point about Aunt May is valid.

We're having a debate here so we tend to go with what we know. The preponderence of the evidence suggests that Spiderman is not Jewish. As I said, if you were betting you'd go with the odds and bet with what you know.

[StoneGold]

I think the list sucks as well (as I noted) though I think the point about Aunt May is valid.

We're having a debate here so we tend to go with what we know. The preponderence of the evidence suggests that Spiderman is not Jewish. As I said, if you were betting you'd go with the odds and bet with what you know.
Heh. You just made him more Jewish. Spiderman.

[Dizzy D]

Huh. That crappy site has been updated. It used to list Bruce Wayne as Catholic, when Episcopalian makes much more sense. Although how the hell is the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender function as a religion????? Jeebus, this guy has his head up his ass.

How about Reed Richard's "scientist, met God"

[Pike]

Heh. You just made him more Jewish. Spiderman.

How did I manage that?

[Expletive Deleted]

He's supposed to have a hyphen.

It's an old joke. Spider-Man and Irving Spiderman, Hotshot Literary Agent.

[StoneGold]

How about Reed Richard's "scientist, met God"
Yeah, and what happens when God is the guy who got kicked out of your wedding?

[Herald of Asgard]

I think Tony Stark might be, not sure tho.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Wanda and Pietro were raised by the Maximoffs, who were gypsies. Magneto, however, is Jewish. The gypsy background revealed in one story (which was at odds with all the previous evidence) has been clearly shown to be a fake identity in X-Men #72.

That was retconned as well by the time he appeared in Excalibur as well. His name is Erik Magnus Lehnsherr permanently now.

[Lochdale]

I think Tony Stark might be, not sure tho.

I think Tony Stark has the resident country-club playboy thing going which is more of a WASP than a Jewish streotype.

I think I'd go with the notion that Spider-man is not Jewish. Stan wanted to make him an "everyman" so to speak so to make him a member of a minority so to speak would not have helped that notion any.

[Sandy Hausler]

And what I'm saying is that more likely than not is not a good way to judge these things. Ben Grimm was more likely than not not Jewish, till Kessel wrote that story. Hell, Sasquatch wasn't, till Starlin needed an extra Jew for Infinity Crusade.

Sasquatch is Jewish????

Sandy Hausler

[StoneGold]

Sasquatch is Jewish????

Sandy Hausler
Like I said, Starlin needed an extra Jew for Infinity Crusade, and this was still a good 10 years before the Thing was officially Jewish. So he's got an Eastern European last name, he's never actually been classified with one particular religion or the other... so when all the heroes were seeing the images of their faith, Langowski saw a Star of David.

[Sandy Hausler]

Like I said, Starlin needed an extra Jew for Infinity Crusade, and this was still a good 10 years before the Thing was officially Jewish. So he's got an Eastern European last name, he's never actually been classified with one particular religion or the other... so when all the heroes were seeing the images of their faith, Langowski saw a Star of David.

My personal rule of thumb is that if the name ends with ski, it's Polish. If it ends with sky, it's Jewish. Of course, there are lots of exceptions, but the rule is correct more often than not, in my experience.

That's why I assumed Sasquatch was Polish.

Sandy Hausler

[StoneGold]

My personal rule of thumb is that if the name ends with ski, it's Polish. If it ends with sky, it's Jewish. Of course, there are lots of exceptions, but the rule is correct more often than not, in my experience.

That's why I assumed Sasquatch was Polish.

Sandy Hausler
There are Polish Jews. So it kind of throws that out the window.


Seriously, and this was the point I was trying to make with the whole Spider-Man thing, with all the forced name changes, assimilation and conversion, you can't assume whether or not a person is Jewish just from their last name. Or anything else really. Case in point.

http://parsec-santa.com/celebrity/celebes/SammyD.GIF

[Pike]

He converted though. You can make a "more likely than not" decision which is made all of the time in courts of law, finance, gambling etc.

It's unlikely that Peter Parker is Jewish given his name, his Aunt's clear Christianity and the numbers game: A lot more Christians than Jews.

[StoneGold]

He converted though. You can make a "more likely than not" decision which is made all of the time in courts of law, finance, gambling etc.

It's unlikely that Peter Parker is Jewish given his name, his Aunt's clear Christianity and the numbers game: A lot more Christians than Jews.
You don't know Forest Hills too well, do you?

And I mentioned conversion. But what the hell, just for the sake of argument, these guys didn't convert.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/images/ethiopian_jews.jpg

[En Sabah Nur...]

Being Polish wouldn't stop him being Jewish or Gypsy as well.


lmao no kidding wtf, i was about to say that.

they make it sound as if the jews in poland aren't polish, cuz they're jewish.

He is of Jewish background, point blank.

Magneto is a survivor of the Auschwitz death camp. As a young boy, with his power over magnetism not yet developed, he and his family were persecuted for being Jewish. Magneto witnessed the murder of his family by the Nazis during the Holocaust. He alone survived and was sent into the camps, forced by the Nazis to work in the Sonderkommandos.


:D

[thik_3rd]

grasshopper 2 (r.i.p.)

[Lochdale]

No, they didn't convert but there are many Jews who do not consider Ethiopian jews to be "real" Jews at all.

Again, it's a numbers game. The evidence suggests that SpideMan is not a Jew.

[StoneGold]

Hey, all I'm saying is that the same amount of evidence existed for Grimm being Jewish as Pete.


Although considering the Etheopian Jews get right of return to Israel, of the Jews that actually matter, they count.

[Sandy Hausler]

There are Polish Jews. So it kind of throws that out the window.


Seriously, and this was the point I was trying to make with the whole Spider-Man thing, with all the forced name changes, assimilation and conversion, you can't assume whether or not a person is Jewish just from their last name. Or anything else really. Case in point.

http://parsec-santa.com/celebrity/celebes/SammyD.GIF

And you are correct, of course. A rule of thumb is only a rule of thumb. (And for purposes of my rule of thumb, Polish Jews are Jews, not Poles.<g>)

Sandy Hausler

[Pike]

Grimm was the exception though and there had been hints all along that he was Jewish (his background etc.). Peter Parker has an Aunt (mother-figure) who is clearly not Jewish. His first and last names are not particularly Jewish either. It's more of a leap to say he is Jewish than to say he isn't.

And Sandy, some people (even Jewish people) put nationality above their religion. My rule of thumb is that I give people the benefit of the doubt and let them tell me what they think they are.

[Sandy Hausler]

And Sandy, some people (even Jewish people) put nationality above their religion. My rule of thumb is that I give people the benefit of the doubt and let them tell me what they think they are.

If I did that, I'd wind up assuming that EVERYBODY is Jewish.<g> (Yes, I'm kidding.)

Sandy Hausler

[Pike]

If I did that, I'd wind up assuming that EVERYBODY is Jewish.<g> (Yes, I'm kidding.)

Sandy Hausler

LOl. Touche Mr. Hausler!

[Pike]

If I did that, I'd wind up assuming that EVERYBODY is Jewish.<g> (Yes, I'm kidding.)

Sandy Hausler

LOl. Touche Mr. Hausler!

[StoneGold]

Grimm was the exception though and there had been hints all along that he was Jewish (his background etc.). Peter Parker has an Aunt (mother-figure) who is clearly not Jewish. His first and last names are not particularly Jewish either. It's more of a leap to say he is Jewish than to say he isn't.

And Sandy, some people (even Jewish people) put nationality above their religion. My rule of thumb is that I give people the benefit of the doubt and let them tell me what they think they are.
Which hints exactly? The clearly revered Aunt Petunia, which as you've been so fond of pointing out, isn't exactly a Jewish name? The football hero/test pilot career route, not exactly the stereotypical Jewish occupations of lawyer (Two-Gun Kid), psychiatrist (Doc Samson) accountant (Iceman) or God (Jack Kirby). The only real hints were from the Yancy Street address, taken from Delancy street, which would have been a Jewish neighborhood in the 30s when Grimm originally would have been a kid, and a drawing of the Thing Kirby did that hangs in a Simi Valley syanagogue of Ben in a yalmulke and tallis reading from the Torah. Otherwise, there have been as much looking into his religion as, well, Spider-Man. Whose Forest Hills address also contains a large Jewish population.

Which again, isn't saying that he's Jewish. Just saying that the things you keep providing as proof that he isn't, arent.

[Typo Lad]

Cohen to Cole makes some sense (if my understanding of your post is correct) whereas I'm not sure what Jewish name would be changed to Parker.

Ask the clerks at Ellis Island. You'd be AMAZED at the "non-Jewish" Jewish family names.

Hell, Grimm ain't a Jewish name either...

[Typo Lad]

There are many Jews who do not consider Ethiopian jews to be "real" Jews at all.

The Lemba tribe and others are almost universally believed to be of Jewish Descent at this point. As StoneGold points out, they are eligable for Right of Return, which is REALLY hard. The B'nai Ephaim of India are still trying to qualify.

Which hints exactly? The clearly revered Aunt Petunia, which as you've been so fond of pointing out, isn't exactly a Jewish name?

To be fair, Aunt Petunia could have changed her name to the English equivilent, which would make her... Hadassah? Daphna? Shoshana?

Depends who you ask.

[StoneGold]

To be fair, Aunt Petunia could have changed her name to the English equivilent, which would make her... Hadassah? Daphna? Shoshana?

Depends who you ask.
Doubtful though. Since she's Jacob Grimm's much younger second wife.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/grimmp1.jpg

Aunt Petunia's a hottie.

[Pike]

Having a maternal Aunt though who is a Christian suggests that Parker, along with his name etc., isn't Jewish.

I thought there had been more overt instances with the Thing?

[Charles RB]

(And for purposes of my rule of thumb, Polish Jews are Jews, not Poles.<g>)

I think Polish Jews would tend to disagree with that.

[Phrozen]

Ask the clerks at Ellis Island. You'd be AMAZED at the "non-Jewish" Jewish family names.

Hell, Grimm ain't a Jewish name either...

It is German in fact. It is a rather uncommon name in North America, much more common in Germany. I have a great uncle named Ben Grimm though.

[Loki]

That was retconned as well by the time he appeared in Excalibur as well. His name is Erik Magnus Lehnsherr permanently now.

When was it retconned? Because, as far as I am aware, while Xavier still sometimes calls him Erik, they've never gone back on the debunking of the Lehnsherr identity.

Oh, and Stonegold, please don't hotlink to images on other people's sites. It costs them money, and its wrong. Can you please edit your post to break that link to the Aunt Petunia image.

[StoneGold]

When was it retconned? Because, as far as I am aware, while Xavier still sometimes calls him Erik, they've never gone back on the debunking of the Lehnsherr identity.

Oh, and Stonegold, please don't hotlink to images on other people's sites. It costs them money, and its wrong. Can you please edit your post to break that link to the Aunt Petunia image.
*Checks profile*

Nope, don't see a mod title next to your name.

[El Santo]

I always thought that both Magneto and Charles Xavier were Jewish. I thought it added some real character depth to Magneto as a character. If I saw my parents slaughtered by the Nazi's then I might be looking to wipe-out human kind as well.

Ditko was very involved with Spiderman's creation though so I'd say he had some influence as to the character development.

I've asked this before but who married Peter and MJ?

The nazis also slaughtered gypsies, homosexuals, and political dissidents in the concentration camps.


On another note, when was it established that Kitty Pryde was Jewish?

[Typo Lad]

Yes, but Aushwitz was for Jews only, as I recall.

[El Santo]

Yes, but Aushwitz was for Jews only, as I recall.


Not true: http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/start/index.php


At first, Poles were imprisoned and died in the camp. Afterwards, Soviet prisoners of war, Gypsies, and prisoners of other nationalities were also incarcerated there. Beginning in 1942, the camp became the site of the greatest mass murder in the history of humanity, which was committed against the European Jews as part of Hitler's plan for the complete destruction of that people.

[Sandy Hausler]

I think Polish Jews would tend to disagree with that.

Hey, I'm a quarter Polish and I agree with it.<g> And it's my rule. I don't demand that anyone agree with it. I don't even say that it's right. I just think it is.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Loki]

*Checks profile*

Nope, don't see a mod title next to your name.

Nope, I'm not a mod, I'm asking you politely to not hotlink because its stealing someone else's bandwidth. I wasn't aware I had to be a moderator to ask someone to show some good manners.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

When was it retconned? Because, as far as I am aware, while Xavier still sometimes calls him Erik, they've never gone back on the debunking of the Lehnsherr identity.

Oh, and Stonegold, please don't hotlink to images on other people's sites. It costs them money, and its wrong. Can you please edit your post to break that link to the Aunt Petunia image.

They seem to have abandoned it. In the Excalibur series, he went exclusively as Erik instead of Magnus the whole run.

[Loki]

They seem to have abandoned it. In the Excalibur series, he went exclusively as Erik instead of Magnus the whole run.

He might have answered to Erik, but they haven't changed that from being a fake identity. Look at the Handbook which came out this month - that's Marvel's official position on who he is, and it has his real identity listed as unrevealed, and Erik Magnus Lehnsherr down as one of his aliases.

[Charles RB]

Hey, I'm a quarter Polish and I agree with it.<g>

But you're not a Polish Jew as in a Jew that was born and lives in Poland.

I don't even say that it's right. I just think it is.<g>

Well, you're wrong. Polish Jews are going to be Polish based on, y'know, the fact they live in Poland and were born there and stuff.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

He might have answered to Erik, but they haven't changed that from being a fake identity. Look at the Handbook which came out this month - that's Marvel's official position on who he is, and it has his real identity listed as unrevealed, and Erik Magnus Lehnsherr down as one of his aliases.

That's cool. But his name is Magnus. That never changes and quite frankly, that's all that matters.

[Pike]

I always liked the idea that Magneto was a Jew whose parents were slaughtered in the concentration camps. It gave more depth to his character and he was more than just a "bad guy".

[Typo Lad]

I always liked the idea that Magneto was a Jew whose parents were slaughtered in the concentration camps. It gave more depth to his character and he was more than just a "bad guy".

The concentration camp angle DOES add more depth (and makes me marvel at his complete lack of awareness of the irony and hypocrocy of his own policies). However, as many have pointed out, more than just Jews were in the Camps.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I always liked the idea that Magneto was a Jew whose parents were slaughtered in the concentration camps. It gave more depth to his character and he was more than just a "bad guy".

He doesn't have to be a Jew to have a concentration camp past. Being gyspy is what has worked and what will continue to work for him.

[Sandy Hausler]

But you're not a Polish Jew as in a Jew that was born and lives in Poland.



Well, you're wrong. Polish Jews are going to be Polish based on, y'know, the fact they live in Poland and were born there and stuff.


You are missing the point. I did not say that a Polish Jew is not Polish. I said for purposes of my rule of thumb, I treat sky suffixes as usually being Jewish (including Polish Jews) and ski as being Polish (but not including Polish Jews). Generally, that works (although not always -- it's only a rule of thumb).

I thought that was all clear from my prior posts. Guess it wasn't to everyone.

Sandy Hausler

[Pike]

The concentration camp angle DOES add more depth (and makes me marvel at his complete lack of awareness of the irony and hypocrocy of his own policies). However, as many have pointed out, more than just Jews were in the Camps.


That is true but Jews made up the vast majority of the concentration camp's victims.

[Typo Lad]

That is true but Jews made up the vast majority of the concentration camp's victims.

Right, but a percentage were Romany, so that works too.

[Loki]

He doesn't have to be a Jew to have a concentration camp past. Being gyspy is what has worked and what will continue to work for him.

Apart from the discredited Lehnsherr cover identity, all the other flashbacks and references to his time in the camps point towards him being Jewish. See the link I included in my first post in this thread.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Apart from the discredited Lehnsherr cover identity, all the other flashbacks and references to his time in the camps point towards him being Jewish. See the link I included in my first post in this thread.

I understand but read the Claremont written Magneto #0 that puts a end to all the disclaimers and rumors of such a thing.

[Matt K]

I understand but read the Claremont written Magneto #0 that puts a end to all the disclaimers and rumors of such a thing.

I've never even heard of this comic. What was it about?

[Loki]

I've never even heard of this comic. What was it about?
Iirc, Magneto #0 was a reprint of the story from X-Men Unlimited #2 - the story detailing Magneto as a gypsy named Erik Lehnsherr, which has since been discredited by X-Men #72. So sorry to the poster of that name, but Magneto #0 doesn't prove Magneto to be a gypsy - Magneto IS Jewish.

[mattx110]

magneto=jew, and spiderman being, from forest hills with an aunt May, and unlce Ben-very common jewish name, was probably intended to be jewish, but since then various holiday specials and the like have turned that around.

in ultimatewhateverit'scalled, brian bendis has pretty much made sure that spiderman is jewish there, as it was probably stan lee's intention, but for now in the MU, he's probably catholic or protestant or of some other christian sect.
this is my attempt to solve all problems, it was worth a try, and whatever they do to magneto, he should still be a jew, but might be part gypsy somewhere along the line. sabra (think that's her name) is jewish, and probably a few more of the unimportant random kid mutants in the xmansion, but oh well.

[DMike]

I think in Magneto's case the strongest evidence of him being Jewish rather than Romany was the fact that he was forced to work the mass graves as part of the Sodderkommando, which was entirely Jewish.

[Sandy Hausler]

Iirc, Magneto #0 was a reprint of the story from X-Men Unlimited #2 - the story detailing Magneto as a gypsy named Erik Lehnsherr, which has since been discredited by X-Men #72. So sorry to the poster of that name, but Magneto #0 doesn't prove Magneto to be a gypsy - Magneto IS Jewish.

Since the revelation that Magneto was a survivor of Auschwitz until the issue had become obfuscated by Marvel, I had assumed that Magneto was Jewish. But since the issue was obfuscated and Marvel has never specifically made any reference to his religion or background, I think saying that Magneto IS Jewish is an overstatement. He may be -- and there are reasons to believe he is -- but it's by no means certain.

Sandy Hausler

[SpartanX]

The Master of Magnetism known as Magneto is a Jewish of unknown name. He changed his name to Erik Lehnsher pretended to be gypsy. That's it. Don't discuss anymore.

[Lord_Archive]

The Thing, Kitty Pride, and Sabra come to mind, and I'm pretty sure there are more. I think I have a list somewhere.

The Thing is Jewish? I hope he wasn't a convert. Otherwise they'd need a jackhammer to do the circumcision.

[Lochdale]

Since the revelation that Magneto was a survivor of Auschwitz until the issue had become obfuscated by Marvel, I had assumed that Magneto was Jewish. But since the issue was obfuscated and Marvel has never specifically made any reference to his religion or background, I think saying that Magneto IS Jewish is an overstatement. He may be -- and there are reasons to believe he is -- but it's by no means certain.

Sandy Hausler

It's a lot more likely that Magneto is Jewish than Peter Parker is. They should confirm that he is indeed Jewish and go from there. While many Gypsy's were killed by the Nazi's, the number killed wasn't even close to the number of Jews slaughtered.

[Loki]

It's a lot more likely that Magneto is Jewish than Peter Parker is. They should confirm that he is indeed Jewish and go from there. While many Gypsy's were killed by the Nazi's, the number killed wasn't even close to the number of Jews slaughtered.
It's not really down to which ethnic group was slaughtered in which numbers. While Sandy is right that they have obfuscated the issue somewhat and haven't explicitly stated Magneto's ethnicity, it's not really all that uncertain. Of the groups sent to the concentration camps, we can eliminate most of the options - Magneto was not disabled, he was too young to be a political activist (he would have hit puberty in the camps, if it wasn't for the malnutrition, which means he was pre-teens when he went in, a bit young to be an activist), he wasn't gay (again, age would have made it hard to tell if he had been, and multiple female partners since make it unlikely he is gay). As you work your way through the list of groups sent to the camps, you end up with Romany or Jewish - and we've now had a denial on him being Romany. Plus, we know he was Sonderkommando, and they were exclusively Jewish.

[Sandy Hausler]

The Master of Magnetism known as Magneto is a Jewish of unknown name. He changed his name to Erik Lehnsher pretended to be gypsy. That's it. Don't discuss anymore.

Uh, since it has never been made clear that Magneto is Jewish (though he may be), I feel that leaving the issue with your definitive note would be misleading.

And, as far as I know, except for Jonah (and maybe the moderators), nobody can stop discussion of a subject.

Sandy Hausler

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Iirc, Magneto #0 was a reprint of the story from X-Men Unlimited #2 - the story detailing Magneto as a gypsy named Erik Lehnsherr, which has since been discredited by X-Men #72. So sorry to the poster of that name, but Magneto #0 doesn't prove Magneto to be a gypsy - Magneto IS Jewish.

#72 hasn't been referenced since it happened. So sorry if that discredits anyone who brings it up as canon as Magneto #0 outright states that he was Gyspy. The fallacy of him being Jewish has no evidence behind it in 2005.

[Loki]

#72 hasn't been referenced since it happened. So sorry if that discredits anyone who brings it up as canon as Magneto #0 outright states that he was Gyspy. The fallacy of him being Jewish has no evidence behind it in 2005.
First, even if X-Men #72 hadn't been referenced since it was released, it also hasn't been discounted either, unlike Magneto #0. So lack of referencing does not "descredit anyone who brings it up as canon" - it is canon. Not being mentioned recently doesn't stop anything from being canonical - we haven't heard about Archangel's uncle, Burt Worthington a.k.a. the Dazzler, this year, but that doesn't mean Archangel no longer has an uncle.

And second, Erik Lehnsherr being an alias and the gypsy identity being fake has been stated quite clearly this year anyway - last month's X-Men Handbook, which is Marvel's official position on the character, referenced it, and the bibliography explicitly referenced X-Men #72.

[Sandy Hausler]

First, even if X-Men #72 hadn't been referenced since it was released, it also hasn't been discounted either, unlike Magneto #0. So lack of referencing does not "descredit anyone who brings it up as canon" - it is canon. Not being mentioned recently doesn't stop anything from being canonical - we haven't heard about Archangel's uncle, Burt Worthington a.k.a. the Dazzler, this year, but that doesn't mean Archangel no longer has an uncle.

And second, Erik Lehnsherr being an alias and the gypsy identity being fake has been stated quite clearly this year anyway - last month's X-Men Handbook, which is Marvel's official position on the character, referenced it, and the bibliography explicitly referenced X-Men #72.

This is kind of pointless. It has never been stated that he is Jewish. It's all inference.

Of course, it's pretty good inference, so it might be true. But until they say it in the books, the issue remains unclear. After all, just because one gypsy identity was fake doesn't mean his real identity is not gypsy.

But, of course, why was he in Israel after the war.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Loki]

This is kind of pointless. It has never been stated that he is Jewish. It's all inference.

Granted.

Of course, it's pretty good inference, so it might be true. But until they say it in the books, the issue remains unclear. After all, just because one gypsy identity was fake doesn't mean his real identity is not gypsy.

No, but as inferences go, Magneto having been one of the Sonderkommando is a pretty big one - afaik, the Sonderkommando were exclusively picked from the Jewish concentration camp prisoners.

But, of course, why was he in Israel after the war.<g>
Another extremely valid point.

[Sandy Hausler]

Granted.



No, but as inferences go, Magneto having been one of the Sonderkommando is a pretty big one - afaik, the Sonderkommando were exclusively picked from the Jewish concentration camp prisoners.


Another extremely valid point.

We are in agreement.

Sandy Hausler

[Khonshu]

Moon Knight/Marc Spector is jewish, I don't know if STeven Grant and Jake Lockley are. LOL

[Pike]

According to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiderman#Early_life

Peter's mother was named Mary Fitzpatrick-Parker. If anything, that suggests Irish or Scottish heritage which suggests that he's a Catholic.

[Sandy Hausler]

It just occurred to me that two Jewish characters have their own books -- the Thing and Doc Samson. Now granted, Doc Samson is only a limited series and the Thing is about to be cancelled, that's still never happened before. Now if they get out the Moon Knight book quick enough, that would make three.

Sandy Hausler

[dingo]

It just occurred to me that two Jewish characters have their own books -- the Thing and Doc Samson. Now granted, Doc Samson is only a limited series and the Thing is about to be cancelled, that's still never happened before. Now if they get out the Moon Knight book quick enough, that would make three.

Sandy Hausler
The thing is about to be cancelled? Since when?

[Sandy Hausler]

The thing is about to be cancelled? Since when?

Wait and see. (I could be wrong. It's been known to happen.)

Sandy Hausler

[Taskmaster]

The thing is about to be cancelled? Since when?
Yeah, why the heck would Thing be cancelled it's just on issue two and it's picking up steam

[kalorama]

Wait and see. (I could be wrong. It's been known to happen.)

Sandy Hausler

So there's really no factual basis for saying The Thing has been cancelled, and you were just speculating/projecting/guessing/making it up?

[sherlockbones]

I just would like to add that the name "Lehnsherr" is unlikely for a jewish person. First, Jews were not allowded to posses land in europe for very long (between 17.-18.century i think). Till 1811, for example, Jews were not allowded to live outside their ghetto in Frankfurt. Further, there was an act (i got the book it is stated in, but I can´t find it now) which forced Jews to "germanize" their names. Karl Marx´s grandfather changed Mordechai to Marx. Usally Jews had to chose locations or swearwords as their new german names. "Lehnsherr" is translated "liege lord" and it is very unlikly that this is a name for a jewish person, because it hints to a local count, or baron, or something, who lost his fortunen, and aristocrats in europe were always(?) christians.
And Magneto sees himself as a royal, I would presume.
Anyway, I don´t know how much historical correct background Marvel adds to their characters, but I hope I delivered something of interest.

[kalorama]

If I recall correctly, there was a story a few years ago where it was established that Lensherr wasn't his real name. It was an alias he took on to hide his true identity from the authorities. He probably chose that name specifically because of his inflated opinion of himself.

[sherlockbones]

If I recall correctly, there was a story a few years ago where it was established that Lensherr wasn't his real name. Iit was an alias he took on to hide his true identity from the authorities. He probably chose that name specifically because of his inlfated opinion of himself.


I have quite a gap in my X-men knowledge between 1995 and 2002. Still
updating, can you name the issue? thx

[Sandy Hausler]

So there's really no factual basis for saying The Thing has been cancelled, and you were just speculating/projecting/guessing/making it up?

Not exactly. I have a source. And he's generally reliable, but I can't say for sure that he's correct in this case. Frankly, I hope he's wrong.

Sandy Hausler

[kalorama]

I'm sure my gaps are much bigger than yours, as I basically stopped reading X-Men with any regularity about the time Jim Lee left to start Image. Since then I've just picked it up in fits and starts (based mostly on who the artist was).

Don't know the issue number, but I recall the revelation first appeared in an issue written by Lobdell and drawn by Pacheco, and that Sabra was a guest star. The Israeli government was looking into Magneto's background and were on the trail of someone who knew the truth about his past. Sabra was sent to fetch him, but Magneto got there first and killed him. It turned out the guy they were after was a forger who created the papers that helped Magneto establish the fake Lensherr identity. (I think it came out around the time Maggott and Marrow joined the team.)

Hope that helps.

[Citizen V]

Magneto is jewish,but this is a fact that not many comics fans either know,or remember.Quicksilver and The Scarlet Witch are also half jewish,because of their father,Magneto.

I sometimes think that Dr.Doom is jewish,since his parents were gypsies.I may be wrong,though.

Sabra is the only jewish hero i can think of who makes that statement clear.Its a shame,she is a character that has alot of potential.

I have a feeling that there are more jewish,or those who have jewish characters in the Marvel Universe.

[Sandy Hausler]

Sabra is the only jewish hero i can think of who makes that statement clear.Its a shame,she is a character that has alot of potential.

I have a feeling that there are more jewish,or those who have jewish characters in the Marvel Universe.

Kitty Pryde, when she first started appearing in the early issues of X-Men, wore a Jewish Star (Star of David) necklace all the time, which is a pretty clear statement that she's Jewish, though not of her religiousity.

Of course, Sabra, being Israeli, has a costume that reflects her Jewishness, though that is more a nationalistic thing, than a religious one, in my opinion.

Other heroes, whose Jewishness has been stated in unmistakeable terms are:

Moon Knight -- his father was a rabbi.

Leonard Samson -- he went to yeshiva (Jewish day school) as a child

Actually, overt religious belief and practice among Marvel characters is pretty sparse. Firebird is a religious Catholic, but we don't see much of her (and really never did). Rahne Sinclair was a devout Protestant, though you wouldn't know it since her latest remake. Daredevil is Catholic, but I'm not sure how devout. And Cloak and Dagger hang out in a Catholic church, but I'm not sure of their personal religious beliefs.

No Jewish character has ever been shown to be devout, certainly not a super hero.

Sandy Hausler

[ednemo]

Ben Grimm, The Thing has had many comics dedicated to the fact that he is Jewish. He is after all, "The Golem".

[Typo Lad]

They also made a point of Justice being Jewish a time or two.

I personally would have loved it if they'd had Sabra turn out to be an Israeli Arab or Christian. That would be awesome.

[sherlockbones]

I sometimes think that Dr.Doom is jewish,since his parents were gypsies.I may be wrong,though.


That´s an odd statement, citizen v. First, Marvel seems to like "gypsy" origins (doom, magneto, nightcrawler) cause they allow them to retcon stuff.
But what makes you think gyspsies are jews? Gypsy is an unfriendly term for members of the sinti and roma culture. Today there are christian and muslim roma, but I don´t know of any connection to judaism.
I think you should get some info´s ;)
Jews are not Gypsies!

[Dizzy D]

I just would like to add that the name "Lehnsherr" is unlikely for a jewish person. First, Jews were not allowded to posses land in europe for very long (between 17.-18.century i think). Till 1811, for example, Jews were not allowded to live outside their ghetto in Frankfurt. Further, there was an act (i got the book it is stated in, but I can´t find it now) which forced Jews to "germanize" their names. Karl Marx´s grandfather changed Mordechai to Marx. Usally Jews had to chose locations or swearwords as their new german names. "Lehnsherr" is translated "liege lord" and it is very unlikly that this is a name for a jewish person, because it hints to a local count, or baron, or something, who lost his fortunen, and aristocrats in europe were always(?) christians.
And Magneto sees himself as a royal, I would presume.
Anyway, I don´t know how much historical correct background Marvel adds to their characters, but I hope I delivered something of interest.

Yeah, but Marvel has never been great with their names for foreign characters. For German and Russian characters they usually take some historic or very standard name (the two main Russian characters are called Romanov and Rasputin. What are the odds?). Others like Klaw or Karma have names or spellings of their names that are very unlikely for their nationality. (Beak as well if he's dutch as some say. Personally I don't think so). And with the latest Marvel Handbook revealing that the swiss Neophyte's name is Simon Hall some names are just completely unlikely. (I bet you that these are usually quickly retconned into immigrants)

[dingo]

Ben Grimm, The Thing has had many comics dedicated to the fact that he is Jewish. He is after all, "The Golem".


No he hasn't. It is actually a very recent revelation that he is Jewish. In fact during the Infinity Crusades when the "non-taken" heroes are considering why they were not taken Ben was shown getting angry at God in a christian church.

[Typo Lad]

No he hasn't. It is actually a very recent revelation that he is Jewish. In fact during the Infinity Crusades when the "non-taken" heroes are considering why they were not taken Ben was shown getting angry at God in a christian church.

Or the Marvel Holiday Special where a little girl is explaining to him "No mister Stupid Gentile, we don't have Christmas. We're Jews. Are you mentally deficient or trying to be a racist bastard?"

Okay, not her exact words, but that's the gist.

[ednemo]

Granted all the comics dealing with Ben Grimm being Jewish are 08/02 and up. But Stan Lee and Jack Kirby always setup Ben to be Jewish. But due to the racial climate at the time, they never made an issue of it, until recent times.

[ednemo]

Here is a link to some comic examples of The Things info.
(Just for the record, in case anyone wonders about my motives...I'm an Athiest.)

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Thing.html

And here are some other Jewish Superheroes from the same source:
Thing
Shadowcat
Sabra
Legion (ya know - Chuck's kid)
Doc Samson
Vance Astro/Justice of the Guardians of the Galaxy/Avengers
Moon Knight
Songbird / Screaming Mimi
Sasquatch (Dr. Walter Langkowski)
Izzy Cohen (of Sgt. Fury's Howling Commandos)
Dominic Fortune
Greenberg the vampire
Bermuda Schwartz of X-Force/Branch M
Volcana
Achilles of the Pantheon (from Hulk)

[Typo Lad]

Granted all the comics dealing with Ben Grimm being Jewish are 08/02 and up. But Stan Lee and Jack Kirby always setup Ben to be Jewish. But due to the racial climate at the time, they never made an issue of it, until recent times.

No, they didn't "set him up" that way. They set him up to be Kirby. And since Kirby was Jewish, therefor the Thing was, in the eyes of Kirby's fans.

[dingo]

Fantastic Four Issue 56/485 August 2002 was the first time Ben Grimm was revealed to be Jewish

Not that long ago, but still a good move for the character (my favorite character btw) I think

[Typo Lad]

Not "revealed"... "retconed".

Not an aweful retcon, but a a retcon nontheless.

Same with Sasquatch's Jewishness.

[ednemo]

My understanding from an Interview with Stan Lee, was that The Thing was always seen as Jewish.

[dingo]

It is a very Jewish name.

[Typo Lad]

It is? I've never met a Jew named Grimm.

Then again, if he IS supposed to be Jack Kirby, that'd make sense, wouldn't it? Maybe it used to be something that sounded to "ethnicy" so Ben dropped it when he joined the army. Pretty typical for a kid growing up in the depression on the Lower East Side.

[dingo]

I was more thinking the Benjamin Jacob bit of his name

[Typo Lad]

I was more thinking the Benjamin Jacob bit of his name

Benjamin and Jacob (Or Ben and Jack) are common names period.

[dingo]

Benjamin and Jacob (Or Ben and Jack) are common names period.

Yeah but Benjamin and Jacob are particularly Jewish names, I am not so sure about in Jewish tradition but in the Christian Bible Jacob was the name of Israel (the literal father of the nation/race/religion, i have always been a little hazy on the details and differences as far as Jews are concerned) before God renamed him and Benjamin was the name of his youngest son.

[Typo Lad]

Well, technically it's Yakov, not Jacob, Yisrael, not Israel, and Binyamin, not Benjamin, but otherwise you're pretty spot-on.

It's just that they're also fairly common Christian names.

[Haunt]

Not "revealed"... "retconed".

Not an aweful retcon, but a a retcon nontheless.

Same with Sasquatch's Jewishness.

what religion/ethnicity was he before the 'retcon' then?

It is a very Jewish name.

and he's very 'golem-ish,' as in the jewish man of clay.

[Typo Lad]

what religion/ethnicity was he before the 'retcon' then?

White, possibly of Germanic descent with that last name, and the rest was up in the air.

and he's very 'golem-ish,' as in the jewish man of clay.

Except that Golems have no free will, can't talk, and were fueled by dead souls.

Other than that, he's exactly like a Golem.

[dingo]

and he's very 'golem-ish,' as in the jewish man of clay.
Given that by definition a Golem must be less than human, I don't think that is something anyone in the MU would want to say to him.

[ednemo]

Given that by definition a Golem must be less than human, I don't think that is something anyone in the MU would want to say to him.

He has been referenced as the Golem due to his appearance and the fact that he's a protector.

[dingo]

He has been referenced as the Golem due to his appearance and the fact that he's a protector.

No doubt, but if i called somebody an Ass meaning that they work tirelessly that does not mean that they may take it as an insult. (Bad example but you know what i mean)

[Reptisaurus!]

No doubt, but if i called somebody an Ass meaning that they work tirelessly that does not mean that they may take it as an insult. (Bad example but you know what i mean)

*Ahem*

I've got doubt. I've got lots and lots of doubt.

'Fact, I'm fairly sure this isn't true, having read most every issue of Fantastic Four since the Kessel Thing-is-Jewish story from a few years back. It's possible I mighta missed it, but I generally focus on and concentrate on the mythological references... So I doubt it.

So, Ednemo:

In which issue of what comic was the Thing "Referenced as the Golem?"

[dingo]

*Ahem*

I've got doubt. I've got lots and lots of doubt.

'Fact, I'm fairly sure this isn't true, having read most every issue of Fantastic Four since the Kessel Thing-is-Jewish story from a few years back. It's possible I mighta missed it, but I generally focus on and concentrate on the mythological references... So I doubt it.

So, Ednemo:

In which issue of what comic was the Thing "Referenced as the Golem?"

It was in the MK4 issue "the golem of yancy street"

[Reptisaurus!]

Oh. Ok. Haven't read that series. (And forgot it existed.)

I take it all back.

[ednemo]

*Ahem*

I've got doubt. I've got lots and lots of doubt.

'Fact, I'm fairly sure this isn't true, having read most every issue of Fantastic Four since the Kessel Thing-is-Jewish story from a few years back. It's possible I mighta missed it, but I generally focus on and concentrate on the mythological references... So I doubt it.

So, Ednemo:

In which issue of what comic was the Thing "Referenced as the Golem?"

1. The quote attributed to me at the top, wasn't me.
2. Fantastic Four #56, PP21. The Pawn Shop owner Sheckerberg is saved by Thing. And when Ben states that he is a monster, he brings up the Golem and states that he was made of clay, but not a monster...he was a protector.

[Typo Lad]

It was in the MK4 issue "the golem of yancy street"

Issue number please. I'd like to read this.

[Typo Lad]

2. Fantastic Four #56, PP21. The Pawn Shop owner Sheckerberg is saved by Thing. And when Ben states that he is a monster, he brings up the Golem and states that he was made of clay, but not a monster...he was a protector.

That's an aweful big insult, actually. The Golem of Prague was a protector, but 99% of the time, Golems are not painted in the best light.

They're automotons.

[dingo]

Issue number please. I'd like to read this.
It was MK4 issue 22
(and i made a mistake, it was the yancy street golem, not the golem of yancy street)

[Frank]

Magneto is gysy. I`ve been reading comics since I was a kid and he`s always been a gyspy. Only in recent years they tried to retcon it, particularly with the movie.

Doc. Samson, Peter Parker, Ben Grimm and Moon Knight are not jewish either. Stop pushing what you wish would be...

[The Escapist]

Actually, overt religious belief and practice among Marvel characters is pretty sparse. Firebird is a religious Catholic, but we don't see much of her (and really never did). Rahne Sinclair was a devout Protestant, though you wouldn't know it since her latest remake. Daredevil is Catholic, but I'm not sure how devout. And Cloak and Dagger hang out in a Catholic church, but I'm not sure of their personal religious beliefs.

Quite agree with your first line, but just to add a couple more examples:
Nightcrawler, whose religious beliefs (Catholicism) have been a strong aspect of his character since he first appeared, and Dust of the New X-Men (Muslim) has been seen praying in her room before, assuming that's something she does often.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Magneto is gysy. I`ve been reading comics since I was a kid and he`s always been a gyspy. Only in recent years they tried to retcon it, particularly with the movie.

Doc. Samson, Peter Parker, Ben Grimm and Moon Knight are not jewish either. Stop pushing what you wish would be...

Well, you are totally incorrect. Magneto has been back and forth since long before the movie, Ben Grimm is absolutely, in the comics, without question Jewish. Moon Knight I could agree with you, it is a matter of semantics. Jewish can mean of a Jewish family, or of the Jewish faith, and Moon Knight, while not a practicing Jew, is the son of a Rabbi. Peter David penned a story in a Marvel Holiday Special where Leonard Samson came to a Hebrew School to tell the story of Hanukkah to a class. In what way are posters pushing anything? These are established and in continuity examples, and there is no
disputing it that Samson, Grimm and in one sense, Moon Knight are all Jewish, and I have no agenda to create any Jewish characters more than any other type of religious affiliation. If anything, I'm a pantheist, I would want more pantheist characters.

[Taskmaster]

Magneto is gysy. I`ve been reading comics since I was a kid and he`s always been a gyspy. Only in recent years they tried to retcon it, particularly with the movie.

Doc. Samson, Peter Parker, Ben Grimm and Moon Knight are not jewish either. Stop pushing what you wish would be...

Yeah, as seen by the poster above, Grimm, Samson and MK are all jewish in continuity, no question about it, Magneto has been boucing back and forth long before the movie too, maybe you should do some research before you jump on people for just stating the truth

edited for no reading the whole thread

[Typo Lad]

Doc Samson being Jewish goes back to pre-Peter David Hulk, actually.

[Sandy Hausler]

Magneto is gysy. I`ve been reading comics since I was a kid and he`s always been a gyspy. Only in recent years they tried to retcon it, particularly with the movie.

Doc. Samson, Peter Parker, Ben Grimm and Moon Knight are not jewish either. Stop pushing what you wish would be...

I guess you don't read many comics, do you.

Doc Samson was explicitly stated to be Jewish. He once spoke at his alma mater, a yeshiva (Jewish day school).

Ben Grimm was explicitly stated to be Jewish. It was written up in all of the Jewish newspapers.

Moon Knight was explicitly stated to be Jewish. His father is a rabbi.

Peter Parker is not Jewish, to the best of my knowledge. I've seen nothing to suggest that he is.

Nobody's pushing what they wish would be.

Sandy Hausler

PS I apologize for repeating what others have stated. I posted before reading the rest of the thread.

[Sandy Hausler]

Quite agree with your first line, but just to add a couple more examples:
Nightcrawler, whose religious beliefs (Catholicism) have been a strong aspect of his character since he first appeared, and Dust of the New X-Men (Muslim) has been seen praying in her room before, assuming that's something she does often.

I stand corrected. And I should have mentioned both of those heroes since I was aware of them.

Though I still think it's amusing that playboy Kurt Wagner went to divinity school to be a celebate priest.

Sandy Hausler

[Typo Lad]

To be fair, I can see someone not "getting" Ben Grimm being Jewish. It is a subtle retcon of sorts.

The others though? Samson's been Jewish since before his 8th appearance, as I recall.

[Frank]

To be fair, I can see someone not "getting" Ben Grimm being Jewish. It is a subtle retcon of sorts.

The others though? Samson's been Jewish since before his 8th appearance, as I recall.

I think Samson being jewish would be pretty neat actually. It would make sens.

But Magneto i`m 100% sure he`s not. Ben Grimm is a matter of "view him how you like" considering that Stan and Jack thought of him as such but never particularly adressed it. I like the Thing-Golem comparison(like in the Doc Samson case it`s a nice continuity if you will).

As for Moon Knight, I always thought there was something arabic, maybe egypthian with him. Didn`t he used to wear egypthians-like garments and weapons?

[StoneGold]

I think Samson being jewish would be pretty neat actually. It would make sens.

But Magneto i`m 100% sure he`s not. Ben Grimm is a matter of "view him how you like" considering that Stan and Jack thought of him as such but never particularly adressed it. I like the Thing-Golem comparison(like in the Doc Samson case it`s a nice continuity if you will).

As for Moon Knight, I always thought there was something arabic, maybe egypthian with him. Didn`t he used to wear egypthians-like garments and weapons?
Never mind, I wrote something without seeing what other people said before. suffice to say, you're wrong.

[StoneGold]

Not "revealed"... "retconed".

Not an aweful retcon, but a a retcon nontheless.

Same with Sasquatch's Jewishness.
Sasquatch wasn't so much a retcon. That was more of just a reveal. I think. I didn't read that much Alpha Flight, but I don't think Langowski's religion came up one way or the other.


Oh, and with Justice, just for the record, only on the mom's side. And yes, I know, that does make him actually Jewish. On the other hand, I can't remember them ever showing him being Jewish.

[ednemo]

I think Samson being jewish would be pretty neat actually. It would make sens.

But Magneto i`m 100% sure he`s not. Ben Grimm is a matter of "view him how you like" considering that Stan and Jack thought of him as such but never particularly adressed it. I like the Thing-Golem comparison(like in the Doc Samson case it`s a nice continuity if you will).

As for Moon Knight, I always thought there was something arabic, maybe egypthian with him. Didn`t he used to wear egypthians-like garments and weapons?

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Magneto is Jewish:

In UXM #150, after Magneto thinks he has killed Kitty, he says: "I remember my own childhood ... the gas chambers at Auschwitz, the guards joking as they herded my family to their death. As our lives were nothing to them, so human lives became nothing to me." Storm is about to blast him for "killing" Kitty, and she says, "If you have a deity, butcher, pray to it!" Magneto answers, "As a boy, I believed. As a boy, I turned my back on god forever." Magneto can't be a political prisoner or atheist--he can only be Gypsy or Jewish if his entire family is at Auschwitz.

In UXM #161, we see for the first and last time Magnus' tattoo from Auschwitz. His number is #214782. Xavier says, "That tattoo, Magnus, were you ...?" Magnus answers, "Auschwitz. I grew up there." Magnus' number is high for someone who was there from the beginning of the camp, but it is a standard number, without the A of the 1944 arrivals, or the Z of the Gypsies, or the other special classification symbols. Of course, the penciller probably didn't know these details...

In Vision and the Scarlet Witch, Vol. 1, #4, Magneto tells Vision about his youth. Pictured is the Auschwitz camp, with guards tormenting emaciated prisoners, one of whom displays a prominent and exaggerated Star of David on his clothing. In the next panel, however, Magneto sort- of goes into a fantasy. He says, "But unlike the other victims, I possessed the power to fight back." He imagines he's hurling Nazi tanks away with magnetic energy. Only Jewish prisoners wore the Star of David.

In UXM #199, Magneto (with Lee Forrester and Kitty Pryde) arrives at the National Holocaust Memorial in Washington, DC. (It's not really Lee, but Mystique, trying to capture Magneto). "Lee" says: "Man's inhumanity to man... how easily the race kills." Magneto answers: "Then, Lee, it was the Jews. My nightmare has ever been that tomorrow it will be Mutants." Why would he say that, if he weren't Jewish? Next, Magneto tells Kitty EXACTLY how to address the gathering in order to get information about dead or missing family members. Isn't it obvious that he's done this before? Why would he address a Jewish Holocaust gathering looking for information about his family if his family weren't Jewish?

http://users.rcn.com/kateshort/faqs/racmxFAQ/faq6.html#MAGNETO

[Typo Lad]

Sasquatch wasn't so much a retcon. That was more of just a reveal. I think. I didn't read that much Alpha Flight, but I don't think Langowski's religion came up one way or the other.

I'll have to add it to my "to read" list.

Oh, and with Justice, just for the record, only on the mom's side. And yes, I know, that does make him actually Jewish. On the other hand, I can't remember them ever showing him being Jewish.

Evan Skolnik wrote a story where Vance's Judiasm played an important part.

Oh and for the recoprd, Astrovik COULD be a Jewish name. Do we have proof the dad's not?

[Dizzy D]

I'll have to add it to my "to read" list.

I quickly skimmed mine, but no mention of religion for Walter so far. He's more used as either a) the scientist, b) Aurora's boytoy or c) Wanda.

Last part is interesting though; living inside the body of a Native American goddess and of a demonic entity should have had some effect on his religious beliefs.

[Mr. Croup]

The reason that Ultimate Spiderman might use alot of Yiddish words conld be because he grew up in a neighborhood with a high Jewish population, and/or Aunt May had some Jewish friends.

People are Jewish only if their mother is Jewish.

[Haunt]

I'll have to add it to my "to read" list.



Evan Skolnik wrote a story where Vance's Judiasm played an important part.

Oh and for the recoprd, Astrovik COULD be a Jewish name. Do we have proof the dad's not?


from what i recall, Sabra (marvel's prototypical jewish hero) did everything but strip for Vance when she met him. i thought it weird at the time because of the age difference.

[Dermie]

Oh and for the recoprd, Astrovik COULD be a Jewish name. Do we have proof the dad's not?

Vance has referred to himself as "half Jewish"--so only one side of his family is.

[Typo Lad]

from what i recall, Sabra (marvel's prototypical jewish hero) did everything but strip for Vance when she met him. i thought it weird at the time because of the age difference.

I thought it weird because it was just so damn trampy. "Look! A Jewish Mutant! LET US MAKE BABIES!"

[Dermie]

from what i recall, Sabra (marvel's prototypical jewish hero) did everything but strip for Vance when she met him. i thought it weird at the time because of the age difference.

Actually, the really weird--and disturbing--part is that Sabra said that Vance reminded her of her son...and then started hitting on him.

[StoneGold]

Oh and for the recoprd, Astrovik COULD be a Jewish name. Do we have proof the dad's not?
I'm pretty sure it was brought up at some point, although that's only if you're willing to accept what are probably decade-old memories.

[Taskmaster]

People are Jewish only if their mother is Jewish.

Where the hell did you get that from? My mother is not jewish, yet I was raised jewish, had a Bar-Mitzvah, etc.....

[Typo Lad]

Where the hell did you get that from? My mother is not jewish, yet I was raised jewish, had a Bar-Mitzvah, etc.....

Orthodox Judiasm (and the other "stricter" denominations, plus the State of Israel) only recognize one as being jewish if one's mother was. Judaism follows the line of Matrilineal descent.

[jadegiant77]

Y'know, I've wanted to know for a long time: when was it revealed that Ben Grimm was Jewish? One day he just started spouting Yiddish phrases("Oy, stretch") and praying in Hebrew("Baruch Adonai...").

[Rivka]

Magneto is gysy. I`ve been reading comics since I was a kid and he`s always been a gyspy. Only in recent years they tried to retcon it, particularly with the movie.

Doc. Samson, Peter Parker, Ben Grimm and Moon Knight are not jewish either. Stop pushing what you wish would be...

Wow, talk about pushing things the way you wish they would be....

Magneto IS Jewish. He was established as Jewish in 1982, and remained so (if subtly) until the attempted retcon of his Jewish identity in 1992, in UNLIMITED #2. Not only did this story attempt to erase Magneto's Jewish identity, it butchered and revised Holocaust and Auschwitz history to do it. Several years later, much to his credit, Bob Harras realized his mistake and he and Joe Kelly fixed this in X-MEN #72.

X-MEN #72 showed us that Magneto took the "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte" identity as a FALSE identity, in order to hide from the KGB and search for his wife, Magda, amongst her own people. This is simply a comic book fact. I fail to understand why so many fans find this so difficult. Including some of my esteemed fellow Magneto-fans, like Erik L. on these boards -- whom I respect very much. Magneto is not a gypsy. He never was a gypsy. He denied "everything" his family died for to take the false gypsy identity.

Marvel has reaffirmed it recently in a handbook, as someone mentioned. Joe Quesada even recently affirmed that Magento is Jewish.

The gypsy identity was a false identity, a false name, a false ethnicity. It was all forged. Magneto is called "Erik" in the Marvel Universe because almost no one but a handful of people know that this is a false identity! To the average MU citizen, to the press, Magneto is "Erik Lehnsherr." He appears to have called himself "Erik Magnus" when he immigrated to Israel, and Xavier still calls him "Erik." That's the name he used when they first met. But House of M was the House of MAGNUS, not House of ERIK, because Magnus is the only real name Magneto has, and even that may be false.

Sabra, the one who discovered the forgery, when she found out, first tried to get to the forger, Georg Odekirk, and then went hunting for Magneto. She was about to kill Joseph, thinking he was Magneto, when she said, "What I am about to do ... I do for the world. For my People. And for your soul ... Magnus...." What people would those be? Why would she otherwise be concerned with Magnus' soul? Because she found out he was Jewish, and wanted to administer a personal justice. By the way, do you doubt Sabra is Jewish? She's never actually said, "I am Jewish." No one has ever really said in the coimcs, "Sabra is Jewish." More reference has been made to Magneto being Jewish than to Sabra. What makes us think she is Jewish? She wears the Star of David on her costume, she is an Israeli superhero -- all circumstantial? For Magneto, being in Auschwitz when he was, entering when he did, having the camp number he does, and above all, being in the Sonderkommando, as well as immigrating to Israel when he could have gone to ANY other country in the world ... for Magneto these are more forceful proof that he is Jewish than Sabra's circumstantial evidence. Yet, everyone accepts Sabra is Jewish (hey, she could be an Israeli Arab, or Christian), and not Magneto, even though Magnus has been identified as Jewish, has self-identified as such, and his "Sinte" identity was proven to be a complete forgery and false.

As for Doc Samson, for gosh sakes, of course he's Jewish. And Moonknight.

And Ben Grimm -- that is simply an amazing, cool development, from my point of view! Jack Kirby drew a portrait of the THING years ago, that hung in his home, which showed Grimm draped in his tallit (the Jewish prayer shawl). I was told by people in the business who have seen this picture, that Kirby was very proud of it. How wonderful and respectful it is, what an awesome homage to the creator, that Tom Brevoort and Mark Waid (who I think wrote the story) and Joe Quesada identified Ben Grimm as Jewish a couple of years ago.

[The Reason]

Moon Knight is jewish and btw Magneto is Jewish he was in a concentration camp in alot of X-men comics he mentions his race and he also attacked the Red Skull once for all the crimes he did againest his people (the Jews)

[StoneGold]

How wonderful and respectful it is, what an awesome homage to the creator, that Tom Brevoort and Mark Waid (who I think wrote the story) and Joe Quesada identified Ben Grimm as Jewish a couple of years ago.
Karl Kessel, actually.

[Frank]

Wow, talk about pushing things the way you wish they would be....

Magneto IS Jewish. He was established as Jewish in 1982, and remained so (if subtly) until the attempted retcon of his Jewish identity in 1992, in UNLIMITED #2. Not only did this story attempt to erase Magneto's Jewish identity, it butchered and revised Holocaust and Auschwitz history to do it. Several years later, much to his credit, Bob Harras realized his mistake and he and Joe Kelly fixed this in X-MEN #72.

It was NEVER established.

X-MEN #72 showed us that Magneto took the "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte" identity as a FALSE identity, in order to hide from the KGB and search for his wife, Magda, amongst her own people. This is simply a comic book fact. I fail to understand why so many fans find this so difficult. Including some of my esteemed fellow Magneto-fans, like Erik L. on these boards -- whom I respect very much. Magneto is not a gypsy. He never was a gypsy. He denied "everything" his family died for to take the false gypsy identity.

He always was a gypsy. The first thing they mentioned when they talked about the concentration camps was that he was gypsy.

Marvel has reaffirmed it recently in a handbook, as someone mentioned. Joe Quesada even recently affirmed that Magento is Jewish.

But Q made Rawhide Kid Gay.

The gypsy identity was a false identity, a false name, a false ethnicity. It was all forged. Magneto is called "Erik" in the Marvel Universe because almost no one but a handful of people know that this is a false identity! To the average MU citizen, to the press, Magneto is "Erik Lehnsherr." He appears to have called himself "Erik Magnus" when he immigrated to Israel, and Xavier still calls him "Erik." That's the name he used when they first met. But House of M was the House of MAGNUS, not House of ERIK, because Magnus is the only real name Magneto has, and even that may be false.

Before the 90s I don`t remember reading any of that Erik stuff. Magneto was Magnus. The first time I saw any of that "Erik" stuff was when Scott Lobdell was reading his awful X-Men run. It felt forced.

Sabra, the one who discovered the forgery, when she found out, first tried to get to the forger, Georg Odekirk, and then went hunting for Magneto. She was about to kill Joseph, thinking he was Magneto, when she said, "What I am about to do ... I do for the world. For my People. And for your soul ... Magnus...." What people would those be? Why would she otherwise be concerned with Magnus' soul? Because she found out he was Jewish, and wanted to administer a personal justice. By the way, do you doubt Sabra is Jewish? She's never actually said, "I am Jewish." No one has ever really said in the coimcs, "Sabra is Jewish." More reference has been made to Magneto being Jewish than to Sabra. What makes us think she is Jewish? She wears the Star of David on her costume, she is an Israeli superhero -- all circumstantial? For Magneto, being in Auschwitz when he was, entering when he did, having the camp number he does, and above all, being in the Sonderkommando, as well as immigrating to Israel when he could have gone to ANY other country in the world ... for Magneto these are more forceful proof that he is Jewish than Sabra's circumstantial evidence. Yet, everyone accepts Sabra is Jewish (hey, she could be an Israeli Arab, or Christian), and not Magneto, even though Magnus has been identified as Jewish, has self-identified as such, and his "Sinte" identity was proven to be a complete forgery and false.

I don`t get any of this Sabra and Sinte thing.

As for Doc Samson, for gosh sakes, of course he's Jewish

I don`t seem to remember that from those Stan Lee-Herb Trimpe stories. I just remember a scientist and machine and he getting bombarded by Gamma Rays .

And Moonknight.

Was this from the Doug Moech stories?

And Ben Grimm -- that is simply an amazing, cool development, from my point of view! Jack Kirby drew a portrait of the THING years ago, that hung in his home, which showed Grimm draped in his tallit (the Jewish prayer shawl). I was told by people in the business who have seen this picture, that Kirby was very proud of it. How wonderful and respectful it is,

I agree that`s pretty cool.

what an awesome homage to the creator, that Tom Brevoort and Mark Waid (who I think wrote the story) and Joe Quesada identified Ben Grimm as Jewish a couple of years ago.

I just think people should see their favorite characters the way they want. It`s like if they would start identifying Hawkeye as irish and then Joe Q would say:"yes Clint is irish! his creator wanted him that way!". The answer from fans would be:"who the f cares about what you think".

[Sandy Hausler]

It was NEVER established.



He always was a gypsy. The first thing they mentioned when they talked about the concentration camps was that he was gypsy.



But Q made Rawhide Kid Gay.



Before the 90s I don`t remember reading any of that Erik stuff. Magneto was Magnus. The first time I saw any of that "Erik" stuff was when Scott Lobdell was reading his awful X-Men run. It felt forced.



I don`t get any of this Sabra and Sinte thing.



I don`t seem to remember that from those Stan Lee-Herb Trimpe stories. I just remember a scientist and machine and he getting bombarded by Gamma Rays .



Was this from the Doug Moech stories?



I agree that`s pretty cool.



I just think people should see their favorite characters the way they want. It`s like if they would start identifying Hawkeye as irish and then Joe Q would say:"yes Clint is irish! his creator wanted him that way!". The answer from fans would be:"who the f cares about what you think".

All right, here's my view:

It was never ESTABLISHED that Magneto is Jewish. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence indicating that he is Jewish. I know of no issue of X-Men or any other book that explicitly states that he is Jewish. (I haven't read every X-Men comic since the late 70s, when it was revealed that he was a Holocaust survivor, so I could be wrong. If anyone can point to an issue where it is EXPLICITLY said that Magneto is Jewish, please provide us with the information.) Since we do not even know Magneto's real name, it is impossible to say with certainty that he is absolutely, positively Jewish. That being said, I believe he is Jewish. The fact that he went to Israel after the Holocaust makes it clear to me.

Sabra is Jewish. Not only is she Israeli (which, I have to admit, is indicative, but not definitive), but her name is Ruth ben Sera (later changed to Ruth bat Seraph, for reasons that I don't understand), a Hebrew name and one that is almost certainly not the name of a Christian or Arab. I believe she served in the Israel army, which would eliminate the possibility of her being an Arab. (Israeli Arabs don't serve in the military.) Also her first (and only) meeting with the Arabian Knight was not friendly, making it unlikely that she is Arab. Of course, someone could later come along and say that her name was changed, and she's really the daughter of a Nazi war criminal who came to Israel because it was the last place anyone would look for him, but until that happens, the evidence is that she is Jewish.

Doc Samson's religion was not revealed in his first appearance, but he has explicitly stated that he is Jewish. And with a name like Leonard Samson, there's no reason to doubt him.

It has also been revealed that Moon Knight is Jewish. His father is a rabbi. I don't belive it was revealed during the Doug Moench issues, but, as far as I know, Doug Moench's issues are not any more canon than those of any other writer. Before he was revealed as Jewish, nothing was ever said about his religion, so it doesn't conflict with anything said earlier.

I don't think anyone is seeing anybody just as they want. Only Magneto is questionable. (I don't think anybody REALLY thinks that Peter Parker is Jewish.) Clearly, if it says in a comic book that a character is Jewish, then he or she is Jewish. Is there a problem with that?

Sandy Hausler

[Typo Lad]

All right, here's my view:

Sabra is Jewish. Not only is she Israeli (which, I have to admit, is indicative, but not definitive), but her name is Ruth ben Sera (later changed to Ruth bat Seraph, for reasons that I don't understand),

Probably because "ben" means "son of" and they didn't realize that BenX is now a name, rather than a title.

(Israeli Arabs don't serve in the military.)

Untrue. There are Israeli Arabs in the IDF.

Also her first (and only) meeting with the Arabian Knight was not friendly, making it unlikely that she is Arab.

Well, I've met more than a few Israeli Arabs who profess hatred for one or another Arab nation or sub-culture.

the evidence is that she is Jewish.

Now that I agree with.

Plus she said Kaddish for her dead kid, you know.

[Rivka]

It was NEVER established.

Yes, it was the intent of Chris Claremont and Dave Cockrum when they put together UNCANNY #150. And in fact planned it for months before that.

Once Magnus was said to have been in the Auschwitz Sonderkommando, that made him Jewish, as well. But I agree with Sandy Hausler, the word "established" is the wrong word. It was the intent of the creators involved, and he was written as Jewish, and his history is that of a Jewish boy during the Holocaust.

There is a reference to him being Jewish in X-MEN #112, this would be after the X-Men discover the forgery. Or presumably, after Haller tells Xavier who tells Scott Summers and Logan.

Other references are just, to me, "no-brainers." Like when, during the mutant massacre, he is informed about what happened to the Morlocks, and he says, "NO, the horrors of my childhood born agin ... only this time, mutants are the victims, instead of Jews." I mean, what else does that mean? Or, when he says in NEW MUTANTS #61, kneeling over the dead body of Doug Ramsey, "An ill wind is coming .. they are registering mutants ... like they once registered my people in Poland ... Who knows what horrors await us!" The only people registered in Poland during the Holocaust were the Jews.


He always was a gypsy. The first thing they mentioned when they talked about the concentration camps was that he was gypsy..

No that is completely false. It simply isn't true. He was given the backstory of a Jewish boy during the Holocaust, his history is that of a Jewish boy during the Holocaust, and we know for a FACT that he took the name "ERIK LEHNSHERR" and the false Sinte identity to hide from the KGB and search for Magda more freely. You can keep saying, "he was always a gypsy" like some people can keep saying, "the earth is flat" and "the sky is orange" if they want to, but that doesn't make it so. He was never a gypsy. That was a false identity. Once it's established that it was a false identity, that the information revealed by Gabrielle Haller in UNLIMITED #2 is falsified information, then that means he was never a gypsy. And in fact, is most likely a German Jew, given his history.

A friend of mine put up this FAQ on his forum. It's the same information as can be found at: http://www.alara.net/opeople/xbooks/magjew.html, but with scans from the comics quoated. It's also incomplete, because it doesn't include the 2004 EXCALIBUR series.

Magneto History (http://cyberhellfireclub.myfreeforum.org/ftopic13.php&sid=209ef010f8fd0fe86b9e221718b7d84c)

[Rivka]

The evidence is that she is Jewish


Now that I agree with.

Plus she said Kaddish for her dead kid, you know.

I truly believe she is! I was using Sabra as an example. The evidence is that Magneto is Jewish, too. (Okay, he never said Kaddish in the comics, but that's because he turned his back on his religion after surviving Auschwitz -- taking the *what kind of God let's something like this happen* point of view, which is a view shared by many survivors from the different death camps, whose accounts I've read, or who I've seen in documentaries such as SHOAH.)

[Sandy Hausler]

Untrue. There are Israeli Arabs in the IDF.


You are correct. Arabs are not required to go to the Israelis army. Some do. But I think I can say without any chance of contradiction, most do not.

Oh, and the kaddish thing is definitely the clincher.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Typo Lad]

You are correct. Arabs are not required to go to the Israelis army. Some do. But I think I can say without any chance of contradiction, most do not.

I don't know, I've met my fair share. Plus if we cound Drue's as Arabs (never do that to their faces, mind) then that's an entire community that has Mandatory Service.

There are more Secular Israeli and Jewish Israeli soldiers though. That's for sure.

[Sandy Hausler]

I don't know, I've met my fair share. Plus if we cound Drue's as Arabs (never do that to their faces, mind) then that's an entire community that has Mandatory Service.

There are more Secular Israeli and Jewish Israeli soldiers though. That's for sure.

I know of the Druze (spent a few weekends in a Druze village), which is why I did not include them with Arabs.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Typo Lad]

I know of the Druze (spent a few weekends in a Druze village), which is why I did not include them with Arabs.<g>

It's not a mistake one makes twice, for those who are wondering.

They make awesome bullwhips, also.

[Gnarl]

He always was a gypsy. The first thing they mentioned when they talked about the concentration camps was that he was gypsy.


Magnus has only been referred to as a Gypsy once. In a briefing where the goverment of Israel was quite clearly trying to distance itself from Magneto, by presenting some obviously faked information.

Magnetos children were adopted and raised by Gypsies, though. I am unsure what that makes them. Their mother may have been a gypsy.

EDIT: Obviously faked to people who knew Magnus background, that is. Like pictures doctored by people who did not know that he was born with white hair.

[StoneGold]

I don`t seem to remember that from those Stan Lee-Herb Trimpe stories. I just remember a scientist and machine and he getting bombarded by Gamma Rays .



Funny 'bout that, with Roy Thomas creating the character and all.

[Taskmaster]

Orthodox Judiasm (and the other "stricter" denominations, plus the State of Israel) only recognize one as being jewish if one's mother was. Judaism follows the line of Matrilineal descent.

Yeah, but you can be jewish even if neither of your parents are Jewish. By that definition i'm not jewish and that's news to me since I was raised jewish, speak a bit of hebrew, know most of the jewish prayers, had a Bar-Mitzvah and went through all the drama of becoming a 'jewish man'

[Mideon]

Spidey's not a Jew. They celebrated Christmas Eve at Aunt May's before.

[Typo Lad]

Yeah, but you can be jewish even if neither of your parents are Jewish.

No offense Taskmaster, but short of conversion, I can't think of a single Jewish denomination that would consider someone Jewish if their folks weren't. Reform Judaism and some Conservative congregations recognize Patrelinial Descent. The State of Israel's Right of Return Law is, as I recall, even based on Matrelinial Descent.

By that definition i'm not jewish and that's news to me since I was raised jewish, speak a bit of hebrew, know most of the jewish prayers, had a Bar-Mitzvah and went through all the drama of becoming a 'jewish man'

In all seriousness, this may be something you wish to discuss with your personal Rabbi. I am not a Rabbi or a Posek. However, based on what I have learned and on situations I have been in, there are many, many Jews who would not consider you Jewish. Ethnically, maybe, but not Religiously.

[cesium salami]

EDIT: Oh, and if you count companies Marvel bought, Prime.

Are you talking about Optimus Prime? We know from Family Gup that OP is Jewish. ;)

[Expletive Deleted]

Are you talking about Optimus Prime?Nope, this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_(comics)).

[StoneGold]

In all seriousness, this may be something you wish to discuss with your personal Rabbi. I am not a Rabbi or a Posek. However, based on what I have learned and on situations I have been in, there are many, many Jews who would not consider you Jewish. Ethnically, maybe, but not Religiously.
That is an actual bone of contention though. I know there are some movements to make conversion methods less strict, anyways, to make the religion more inclusive.

[Typo Lad]

That is an actual bone of contention though. I know there are some movements to make conversion methods less strict, anyways, to make the religion more inclusive.

True. I don't know if I'm comfortable with that, myself. And I say that as a person married to a Convert.

[Taskmaster]

No offense Taskmaster, but short of conversion, I can't think of a single Jewish denomination that would consider someone Jewish if their folks weren't. Reform Judaism and some Conservative congregations recognize Patrelinial Descent. The State of Israel's Right of Return Law is, as I recall, even based on Matrelinial Descent.



In all seriousness, this may be something you wish to discuss with your personal Rabbi. I am not a Rabbi or a Posek. However, based on what I have learned and on situations I have been in, there are many, many Jews who would not consider you Jewish. Ethnically, maybe, but not Religiously.

Conversion is what I was talking about. So wait your telling me i'm not a Jew, and I should discuss it with my Rabbi? My Rabbi knows i'm jewish, my mother's priest was friends with my Rabbi and attended my Bar Mitzvah and my Rabbi tutored me for that same Bar Mitzvah. Allllllllllllrighty then :rolleyes: stupid beliefs like this bullsh1t that is preached is one of many reasons that I think the Jewish faith, just like all religions is a bunch of pompus arseholes out for themselves and totally full of crap.

[Typo Lad]

Conversion is what I was talking about.

Well, in that situation, any form of parental descent doesn't really apply obviously. Fresh start, essentially. Like, my wife is Jewish because she converted, but my daughter is Jewish because my wife is.

So wait your telling me i'm not a Jew,

No, no, no. Not what I was trying to say and here I've gone and caused offence.

I was saying that according to many "schools" of Judiasm, you would not be considered Jewish if your mother was not. Religious Lineage goes by Matrelinal Descent. I'm talking in abstract and not trying to point any fingers and say "You're not Jewish!!!". I'm saying "Some people might not consider you Jewish". That's all.

and I should discuss it with my Rabbi? My Rabbi knows i'm jewish, my mother's priest was friends with my Rabbi and attended my Bar Mitzvah and my Rabbi tutored me for that same Bar Mitzvah.

Which is why I'm saying talk to your Rabbi about this. Because he's known you and knows the situation and I don't. I'm some guy on the internet and you have no reason to listen to me or respect me. However, if you want to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to say, ask him.

Allllllllllllrighty then :rolleyes: stupid beliefs like this bullsh1t that is preached is one of many reasons that I think the Jewish faith, just like all religions is a bunch of pompus arseholes out for themselves and totally full of crap.

Well that's not very nice.

I mean, feel free to not have the same beliefs as others, but to mock them as stupid and call millions of people pompus arseholes?

You are free to ignore me.

[Taskmaster]

Well, in that situation, any form of parental descent doesn't really apply obviously. Fresh start, essentially. Like, my wife is Jewish because she converted, but my daughter is Jewish because my wife is.



No, no, no. Not what I was trying to say and here I've gone and caused offence.

I was saying that according to many "schools" of Judiasm, you would not be considered Jewish if your mother was not. Religious Lineage goes by Matrelinal Descent. I'm talking in abstract and not trying to point any fingers and say "You're not Jewish!!!". I'm saying "Some people might not consider you Jewish". That's all.



Which is why I'm saying talk to your Rabbi about this. Because he's known you and knows the situation and I don't. I'm some guy on the internet and you have no reason to listen to me or respect me. However, if you want to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to say, ask him.



Well that's not very nice.

I mean, feel free to not have the same beliefs as others, but to mock them as stupid and call millions of people pompus arseholes?

You are free to ignore me.

I'm not calling the millions of followers arseholes, it's more the people the founded the religions (not the idealists like Buddah, Jesus and other religious figures) those that took others ideas and turned them into a money making sceme

[Sandy Hausler]

I'm not calling the millions of followers arseholes, it's more the people the founded the religions (not the idealists like Buddah, Jesus and other religious figures) those that took others ideas and turned them into a money making sceme

Uh, I'm not sure who you are talking about. I don't know of any big Jewish "church" that rakes in the money.

Sandy Hausler

[punisher_ryu]

Magneto is Gyspy. It's a wide assumption he's Jewish but there has never been any positive proof of such a thing.

magneto is not gypsy(lol, i think you mean indian). pietro and wanda's foster parents are gypsy, but magneto is jewish.

[punisher_ryu]

I can't think of a single Muslim hero apart from the Arabian Knight.

dust is muslim.

[punisher_ryu]

Actually he's polish

he's both. judaism is the religion he was born into, but he is from poland. which has a lot of jewish people in it. probably why hitler attacked it first.

[punisher_ryu]

Not according to current Marvel talk, which has him as a Gypsy.

but he's white, how can he be gypsy????

[ednemo]

but he's white, how can he be gypsy????

Most traditional gypsies are from regions in Romania and Hungary. That's pretty white.

[punisher_ryu]

Most traditional gypsies are from regions in Romania and Hungary. That's pretty white.

i was thinking of the original gypsies that migrated from northern india, but thanks.

[ednemo]

i was thinking of the original gypsies that migrated from northern india, but thanks.

The word "gypsy" comes from the Romany language. However many groups got lumped in with the term gypsy, even though they don't call themselves that. Most of the Western Europe groups call themselves "travelers". However the word Gypsy is a perversion of the word "Egypt". Sort of like calling a Cherokee or Sioux a native american. An easy way to lump people into one category.

[Billy Parker]

It really bugs me in New Avengers when Spidey is always saying "Oy!" and "Oy vey!" Every other time we see him in NA, Bendis has him saying "Oy/Oy vey!" when Spidey spots a villain, etc. What is the deal with that? It just sounds stupid and uninspired.

Isn't that typically a Jewish expression? I'm used to reading Amazing Spider-Man from the 60s and 70s and his faith was never established then. If his faith was ever established, I just wouldn't be able to relate to him as much and I think many fans would feel the same way, whichever faith he would be. Nothing against any faiths, I just wouldn't want him to be given one.

[Sandy Hausler]

he's both. judaism is the religion he was born into, but he is from poland. which has a lot of jewish people in it. probably why hitler attacked it first.

Uh, not so many any more.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

It really bugs me in New Avengers when Spidey is always saying "Oy!" and "Oy vey!" Every other time we see him in NA, Bendis has him saying "Oy/Oy vey!" when Spidey spots a villain, etc. What is the deal with that? It just sounds stupid and uninspired.

Isn't that typically a Jewish expression? I'm used to reading Amazing Spider-Man from the 60s and 70s and his faith was never established then. If his faith was ever established, I just wouldn't be able to relate to him as much and I think many fans would feel the same way, whichever faith he would be. Nothing against any faiths, I just wouldn't want him to be given one.

Well, yeah, it is an expression of Jewish origin, but he's from New York and a lot of Yiddishisms have become common parlance there (well, actually here, since that's where I'm posting this).

Sandy Hausler

PS Why should the use of Oy vey bug you?

[Sandy Hausler]

So there's really no factual basis for saying The Thing has been cancelled, and you were just speculating/projecting/guessing/making it up?

Well, I did have a factual basis and my source has proven to be right. I would never make something up. Of course, there was always the possibility of a last-minute reprieve, which is why I could not say anything for sure. An apology would be welcome.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

Billy Kaplan, Wiccan, may be Jewish. (I'd think it all but certain from his name.)

Also, on the same basis, it's possible that Teddy Altman (Hulkling) may be Jewish or, in that he's actually half Skrull and half Kree, raised by a Jewish family.

Sandy Hausler

[Typo Lad]

Well, was Wanda's mom Jewish? if so, Teddy's Jewish according to hardcore Jewish though.

[Haunt]

Well, was Wanda's mom Jewish? if so, Teddy's Jewish according to hardcore Jewish though.

Wanda's mom was "gypsy," apparently.

[Sandy Hausler]

Well, was Wanda's mom Jewish? if so, Teddy's Jewish according to hardcore Jewish though.

We're still not sure of the exact nature of his relationship (if any) with Wanda, so that may not be relevant.

Sandy Hausler

[Typo Lad]

Well, you know, Jewish soul.

Yeah, I know, talking out my rectum...

[Scavenger]

Yeah, I know, talking out my rectum...


You seem to do that.


Not "revealed"... "retconed".

Not an aweful retcon, but a a retcon nontheless.

Same with Sasquatch's Jewishness.

Unless either had established a religion before hand, the correct word is "revealed".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunt
what religion/ethnicity was he before the 'retcon' then?


White,


You somehow seem to think if someone's "Jewish" then, they can't be "white". as someone's who's both white and Jewish, you're...uhm..wrong. And as "white" isn't either a religion or an ethnicity, except perhaps in certain backwards part of Alabama, that doesn't qualify either.


On the Magneto topic, there was much speculation at the time of Magneto's "gypsy" reveal it was a pc move. He was being re-postitioned (after the semi-hero X-Men time) as one of Marvel's major bad guys, and rather than risk protests from Jewish groups that the major villain was Jewish, they made him a Gypsy (as Gypsy's 1} don't have as much political pull and 2} don't go around protesting Doctor Doom)

[Typo Lad]

You seem to do that.

You're mean.

Ilike you.


Unless either had established a religion before hand, the correct word is "revealed".

While I can't speak for Sasquatch, previous portrayals of the Thing were of someone, at the very least, unaware of religion. Specifically I'm thinking of a Marvel Holiday Special where a little girl has to explain to him what Chanukah is. Sorry, but if he knows enough to say Kadish, he knows what a Menorah is.

It's a retcon.


You somehow seem to think if someone's "Jewish" then, they can't be "white". as someone's who's both white and Jewish, you're...uhm..wrong. And as "white" isn't either a religion or an ethnicity, except perhaps in certain backwards part of Alabama, that doesn't qualify either.

Well, I guess it matters how you define "white". I'm of Eastern-European stock myself, and I consider "white" to be of Anglo-Saxon descent, be it a WASP or of another religious affiliation. You are correct though, that i should find a better term than the generic "white".

Which is silly. I'm not white. I'm a very pale peach-like color.


On the Magneto topic, there was much speculation at the time of Magneto's "gypsy" reveal it was a pc move. He was being re-postitioned (after the semi-hero X-Men time) as one of Marvel's major bad guys, and rather than risk protests from Jewish groups that the major villain was Jewish, they made him a Gypsy (as Gypsy's 1} don't have as much political pull and 2} don't go around protesting Doctor Doom)

I think that was covered in the thread already.

[Joey Deadcat]

Magneto:Jewish or Roma/Gypsy? (http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Magneto.html)

[Kid Kyoto]

"Bendis has worked a fair amount of Yiddish into Ultimate Parker's vocabulary, and how many non-Jewish 15 year olds know Yiddish?"

In NY a fair amount of yidish words like schlep have worked their way into the common lingo.

[Scavenger]

You're mean.

Ilike you.

:D If you took your screen name from the Legion of Net.Heroes, I created you:)

(well kinda sorta)



Why Magneto became a gypsy.

I think that was covered in the thread already.

I hadn't seen comments on the behind the scene reasoning/attack of the PC brigade parts of it.

[Typo Lad]

That's not where I got the name, but it clearly shows that great minds think alike. I always wanted to find the guy that created that typo lad!

I now show up more on google searches. Sorry.

[Slade.]

Wow whoever just said Gypsies (Roma) are white please go die somewhere.

With your stereotypical defention of gypsy. ROMA is an actual race. They only called them Gypsy cuz English people thought they came from Egypt, but it was India. Gypsy only means someon who wanders, a nomad. There's Irish gypsies, who are white. No big difference between them and irish people racialy but they're called Gypsies.

But they're not the actual race. They're just the dictionary defenition of gypsy.

Roma RACE, and Gypsy nomads are 2 different things. ANYONE can be a damn nomad. Theres African gypsies, Asian gypsies etc.. But ROMA = RACE OF PEOPLE who came form india and mixed with people in the Balkans and Mediteranean. Just like spaniards and native americans.

I'm Roma race, and I'm from the Balkans originaly. But there's "gypsies" everywhere. Especialy in Spain. Of course just like Latinos color and look can vary from pretty fair skinned to completly brown.

In case you didn't know who or what a Roma looks like here you go.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Tsigganes-Greek_Roma-Gypsies.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3f/Yul_brynner.jpg

http://www.marqueecork.com/images/photos/gipsykings.jpg


then theres the lighter kind like Django Reindhardt

http://www.jazzmagazine.com/Vies/Etudes/Django/images/DJ1947(vandamme).jpg



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people

[Typo Lad]

Isn't someone who is Roma a Rom?

Shoot me if I'm wrong.

[Scavenger]

That's not where I got the name, but it clearly shows that great minds think alike. I always wanted to find the guy that created that typo lad!


Technicly, I developed the character...someone else created him and gave him to me as a sidekick. Who it was is lost to history...some what 15+ years ago

[Slade.]

Isn't someone who is Roma a Rom?

Shoot me if I'm wrong.

The Roma people (singular Rom; sometimes Rroma, Rrom), often referred to as gypsies, are a heterogeneous ethnic group who live primarily in Southern and Eastern Europe, Western Asia, Latin America, the southern part of the United States and the Middle East. They are believed to have originated mostly from the Rajasthan region of India. They began their migration to Europe and North Africa via the Iranian plateau about 1,000 years ago.

Most Roma refer to themselves as Rom. In the Romani language, Rom (man) derives from the Sanskrit dom (man). Alternate spellings of "Rroma" for the people and "Rromanes" for the language, were rejected by the last World Romani Congress, which defined the universal Romani alphabet.

The English term gypsies (or gipsies), originates from the Greek word Αιγύπτοι (Aigyptoi), modern Greek γύφτοι (gyphtoi), in the erroneous belief that the Roma originated in Egypt, and were exiled as punishment for allegedly harboring the infant Jesus[12]. This ethnonym is not used by the Roma to describe themselves, and is often considered pejorative. However, the use of "gypsy" in English is now so pervasive that many Roma organizations use the word gypsy in their own names. In North America, the word "gypsy" is often misunderstood as a reference to lifestyle or fashion, and not to the Roma ethnicity. The Spanish term gitano and the French term gitan may have the same origin[13].



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people


:cool:

[Typo Lad]

So short answer, I was kinda right.

I can deal with that.

[StoneGold]

With your stereotypical defention of gypsy. ROMA is an actual race.
Just saying, your stronger definition in your second post kind of goes against your statement here. A heterogeneous ethnic group can't be a race.


But then, race is even more fictional than ethnic group, so have fun.

[Leebenhouse]

What's a Ruma then? Cause it says my great grandpa was part ruma/part polish.

I'm Polish, Hungarian, German, Ruma on one side, south American, which is composed of Portugese dutch from a british colony on the other side.

Yeah, I'm an American, technically speaking half Latino.